georges1

Dura Ace mechnical is vastly superior to Sram Rival regarding shifting precision and braking and most of the professional teams ride on Dura Ace. Dura Ace has established itself since a long time as a must have among the professional road bike racers.

Eric F 

What I find interesting is that Campagnolo has almost disappeared among the World Tour teams, with only AG2R using the Italian brand. Meanwhile, SRAM has 3 teams on Red. Dura Ace for everyone else. I wonder how much of that is a choice of superior performance, and how much is sponsorship driven.

t2p

a broken cable sunk the Titanic

seypat

Before equipment contracts got huge on the PGA Tour, the same company won the iron count every year by a large margin. The era of the big endorsement deals began and ended that. If a player is between endorsement deals though, there's a good chance those irons will be in his/her bag.

georges1

If you ever have ridden on a Dura Ace equipped bike, you would understand history of Dura Ace. Many of first technological premieres such as SIS, STI, Dual PivotBrakes,Hollowtech, Hollowtech II and DI2 were introduced by Shimano with Dura Ace. Campagnolo had its glory years from the 70's until 00's , but in the ratio quality price wise Shimano is a much better product and was and is also a bigger manufacturer covering City, MTB and Hybrid bikes. Campagnolo was only a road bike components manufacturer until recently where it started to developp a gravel group suposed to compete with GRX.

PeteHski

What pro teams are using mechanical DuraAce or any other mechanical groupset? They are extinct at that level. The last time the TDF was won with a mechanical groupset was 2014 (Nibali on Campag).

Shifting precision is far better with any electronic groupset IMO. I take it you have actually done a comparison right? I'm not saying SRAM Rival AXS is a match for Dura Ace build quality, but I would still choose it in preference for the electronic shifting. But that's just me. I realise you don't do new tech.

PeteHski

I expect it's a bit of both. I think teams with a free choice would most likely choose Shimano for its quality. Although personally I prefer the fully wireless SRAM setup. I prefer the SRAM shift lever setup and quickly interchangeable batteries. Not to mention no wires anywhere.

Trakhak

In addition to road (and track!) bike components, Campagnolo briefly manufactured BMX cranks and BMX pedals [Edit: removed the link because "not private," but you can search for and find Campy BMX pedal images]. They also had two mountain bike groupsets: Euclid and Centaur. (They also supplied parts for satellites, no doubt because they were already set up for precision manufacturing.)

Trakhak

Just a small FYI: the photos and history found at your link neglected to include the Dura-Ace centerpull brakes that preceded the sidepull version.

eduskator

I agree with you. Ultegra & DA > Force & Red for overall quality and shifting smoothness.

Wanted to switch from Ultegra to Force a few years ago when I bought my actual bike and everyone told me not to. Still very satisfied with my R8070 groupset, and looking forward to try the new 12spd on my next bike.

GhostRider62

I have DA 7400 and 7800 and 10 Speed Ultegra. SRAM Red 22, 11 speed etap, and AXS Red groups.

AXS Red>eTap>7800>7400>10 Speed Ultegra>Red 22>>>>>C Record>Bar Cons>Nuovo Record

georges1

Interesting and thanks for sharing The campagnolo MTB and BMX components were short lived and they haven't introduced rapidfire plus shifters unlike shimano with the deore xt and dx back in 1989, most of MTB manufacturers back then were Shimano equipped ,Campy equipped MTBs were very scarce.

PeteHski

For me the quality difference is not very significant. I went from Ultegra 11-speed mechanical to Force AXS and never regretted it for one moment. Both are reliable enough ultimately. SRAM perceived quality vs reality I think is a little skewed. I've been running SRAM mtb setups (X9, X0, X01 etc) for many years with no issues. I'm only 1 season in on Force AXS, but it has been faultless and I much prefer it to my previous mechanical Ultegra and 105.

phrantic09

I have a mix Force and Rival AXS build and I can honestly say I prefer it to my mechanical GRX 800 or prior Ultegra 8000 Di2. It’s fully wireless, never misses a shift and is easy to charge with removable batteries vs having to plug your bike in.

Eric F 

I have ridden and raced on DA-equipped bikes since 8-speed STI was modern technology. My current stable of bikes includes Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo-equipped machines. I have my own preferences. I was just making an observation that there has been a tidal shift over the years that I find interesting, and expressed curiosity about the nature of that shift. Shimano is a MUCH larger company (making more than juts bike parts), with a lot more money to throw around. I suspect sponsorship has a big effect on what ends up on pro bikes.

GhostRider62

I was trying to build up a bike a year ago and wanted DA 12 speed but groupsets were somewhat unobtainium. I really do not like the 48/35 and 10-28 or 10-33 gearing SRAM throws down. Shimano 53/39 and 11-30 is more efficient and quieter and therefore, more better.

Kontact 

Campy had Bullet shifters.

Hiro11

My opinions after owning almost everything:
1. 8sp and 9sp Shimano Dura Ace and Ultegra was great at the time but is not up to par with more modern stuff.
2. Early mechanical SRAM was fine but did not shift as well as Shimano stuff from the same era. The front derailleurs in particular did not work well.
3. 10sp and 11sp Shimano mechanical is excellent stuff. The 10sp groups with the shifting cables that came out of the side of levers had a particularly great shifting feel. The groups with under the tape shift cables were almost as good but had a tendency to snap cables in the lever over time.
4. 10sp and 11sp Campagnolo is probably my favorite mechanical shifting of all time. I have used both and currently have a bike with 11sp mechanical Super Record. This stuff is a joy to use. Very snappy, crisp, fast and positive. Mechanical Campagnolo is also extremely reliable, a fact I rarely see mentioned. Weird fact: 11sp Campagnolo works great with 11sp Shimano cassettes, despite what Campagnolo says.
5. 11sp Di2 is amazing stuff. Both the front and rear shifting is incredibly fast and reliable. It IS marginally better than mechanical, especially in the heat of battle. Also, there are no cables to wear out: you set it up and charge the battery every few months. I've had a Di2 group on a bike since 2019 and it still works perfectly despite almost no maintenance. I have not used 12sp Di2 but I think it's fair to say that Di2 is overall the best drivetrain on the market period.
6. 11sp mechanical SRAM is OK, but not as good as 11sp mechanical Campagnolo or Shimano. It's a little slower in rear shifting and the front shifting is kinda bad.
6. 12sp AXS (I have a bike with Rival AXS) is really good but it simply does not shift quite as well as prior or current Di2. The front shifting is fine (better than some would have you believe) but not quite up to Di2. The rear shifting has a slight hesitation that's not there with Di2. These are minor differences but they are there. On the other hand, eTap (one lever to shift up, another to shift down, both to shift front) is my favorite shifter setup ever. Also, the totally wireless and double battery setup of SRAM is a game-changer and clearly the way forward, I prefer SRAM road braking and SRAM is significantly cheaper than Shimano at any given level.

Having said all of the above, the enormous pricing increase for electronic needs to end. The technologies involved are simple and drivetrains should not cost this much. On the other hand, there are essentially no functional differences between group levels at this point. There's no functional reason to buy more than 105 Di2 or Rival AXS these days.

Kimmo

I love all the shade I copped for daring to suggest electronic stuff can't be better in every way.

You may not give a crap about feeling the drivetrain through a cable, and that's fine. But some prefer it, and they're totally allowed to define that as a feature not matched by electronic.

For the record, I have 9070, and it's the bomb. But it's missing a couple of things the mechanical equivalent has - tactile feedback and simplicity.

Yes, simplicity. You might see a simple black box; I see a comically complicated rat's nest of transistors and code. A single tiny chip on one PCB is more complicated than the whole rest of the bike. I'll say it again: there exists a totally legitimate perspective that considers electronic shifting totally ridiculous.

I mean come on - it came along just as mechanical shifting had been virtually perfected. Although frayed cables inside Shimano shifters is a bit crap; a side effect of backwards compatibility with 6s derailer geometry up to 10s, and then for some reason when they changed the cable pull they increased it by stuff-all (the cable fatigue is the result of the tiny diameter of the spool inside the shifter).

I did hold up Ultrashift as the pinnacle of mechanical shifting though, and there's nothing wrong with that, except it's mechanical so requires maintenance.

Which can also be regarded as a feature rather than a bug, given how pleasurable working on top-notch bikes is.

Kimmo

Wow, that's quite a huge gap between AXS Red and Red 22!
I have a Red 22 bike; I have a hard time understanding how AXS can be that much better... But then I'd definitely rate Red 22 above 7400, lever feel excepted.
​​​

GhostRider62

Hood ergos and levers suck on Red 22, excessive effort to shift. RD breaks. I have two sets, not a fan at all.

Sy Reene

I could well be mistaken, but I thought teams had to ride bikes that were also commercially available to the public? So as an example, if Specialized doesn't sell a Campy-trim Tarmac, the pro teams can't cobble them together. Wouldn't the bike brand be the preeminent determinant of what equipment is likely to be hung on the bike?

PeteHski

Mechanical shifting was not virtually perfect for me, especially not on road bike brifters. It was about as good as it could get considering the limitations of cable operation. Certainly adequate, but not perfect. Electronic shifting moved the goalposts regarding shift perfection. Now it's pretty faultless and limited only by the mechanical derailleur concept, especially at the front.

It's also 2023, where ICs are commonplace. While it may have taken half a century to develop the technology, by definition they simplify the overall design. Their use in this application is only going to seem ridiculous to someone living in the past.

Maelochs

If we are going to talk about complexity being bad ... carbon fiber?

But wait .... how about aluminum? Mining, refining, casting .... all so very simple.

And tires .... come from tire trees.

ussprinceton

Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 for this S-Works frame



Sram Red eTap for this other S-Works