Tim O

Looking for advice on best 'starter' bike.

Daughter (very experienced road rider/racer) wants to have a go at racing on the track, mostly Newport here in the UK. She's ridden there a few times, always on hire bikes.

So, dad being dad. I thought I'd find her something of her own. I've been offered a new Moda Forte (but with wheels from a Giant Omnium - heavy!) and an immaculate Cannondale CAAD10.
Both are 52cm frames (she's 5' 8" tall), Components on the Moda are nothing special, bars too wide, but the chainset looks good (re-badged SRAM?). The Cannondale has better wheels (Mavic Ellipse).
From the geometry charts the Moda looks a bit more aggressive at the front, with a very short head tube, but other than that I'm not sure how to choose.

From the experienced riders out there, thoughts, preference?

Thanks.

carleton

Hi, Tim.

Basic thoughts:
- Fit trumps materials every time. She'll be fastest on the bike that fits her best.
- Search for a local bike fitter that understands the what is required of track racers. Most road/TT fitters will say, "Sure, I can fit for track! (how hard can it be?)". Find the (wo)man who can explain the differences on the phone. That will be money well-spent. Generally, a "track fit" is less comfortable than a "road fit" as the races are shorter and aero gains are rewarded.
- Get the frame that matches the geo set by the fitter. A rider her size would not flex a steel or aluminum frame. Carbon isn't necessary. A 52 (thereabout) cm steel frame is as stiff as any BT. Propensity to flex is a function of the frame's size.
- Count on buying the components a-la-carte. It won't be as expensive or the same headache as with a road bike. No cables to run. No derailleurs to install and tune.
- Focus on:
- Frame (see above)
- Narrow bars of 33-35cm, even for enduros. They will feel weird to her at first. She'll adjust by the 2nd day. Nitto has great budget friendly options. V. Pendleton won world championships on narrow Nitto B125 aluminum bars that can be had for $100. As light and stiff as carbon.
- Wheels. Ellipse are perfect for training & racing at her level. Clincher for easy service. She may even have a nicer front road wheel.
- Saddle. Whatever her butt likes. Shy away from stub-nosed TT saddles like the Cobb unless you really know what you are doing.
- Cranks. Buy quality and the appropriate length, probably 165mm. SRAM Omnium and the Vision cranks are budget friendly quality options. Dura Ace if you want an upgrade, but not necessary.
- Tools and training to use them. There are a lot of frequent equipment changes in track racing (wheels, cogs, chainrings, bars, etc...).
- Inexpensive quality chainrings and cogs. FSA Pro chainrings and Dura Ace cogs come to mind. But, there may be many more now.


Read through this thread (maybe have her read it, too) to see what's necessary, nice to have, and unnecessary: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ack-racer.html

If you want us to evaluate the geo of the frames you are considering, please link to the geo charts and maybe someone will have a comment. The keys are generally head tube angle and fork offset. These can greatly affect the handling. But, 52cm might force sort of a slack setup to keep from getting severe toe overlap.

EDIT:

Also, don't count on the track frame having the same TT as the road. On the road bike, the rider has the hoods to extend on to. That's more reach. There are no hoods on the track bike. So, she may ride a 52cm road frame and a 54cm track...who knows?! That's why a good fitter is important. It's common for people's first track bike to be too small. Mine was. I've seen it dozens of times. Watched a roadie buy his first track bike a few weeks ago...also too small.

carleton

One piece of advice for you and your daughter as an experienced road racer, try to avoid the common misconception that track racing is a lesser, easier sport than road. It's not. It's a similar but significantly different sport than road racing. I like to say it's like the difference between playing electric guitar then classical. Yes, classical is much more simple, but now in that more simple format, form, technique, and skill are what separates one from the others and the differences are very, very subtle.

She will definitely experience some easy wins in the lower divisions as she gains experience and is upgraded. These easy wins are simply based on her fitness. Make sure to focus on learning "track craft", skills, etc... that will become useful when she's upgraded into divisions where everyone has the same legs and lungs as she does. This is how us old racers beat up on the young bucks

You'd be amazed at how many roadies come to the track, breeze through the beginner ranks and think, "pffft. Track is nothing compared to road.", then get their butt handed to them when they get into the higher divs.

Winning and DFL on the track can be separated by less than 10 seconds. Podium or no-podium is often separated by less than half a second in some events at ALL levels (Jr, Sr, Masters). That's how competitive it is.

Tim O

carleton

Yes, the nice road wheels will be fine. When you get a skewer, make sure that the female end has steel threads, not aluminum. The aluminum will strip one day...at the most inopportune time. The "heavy" skewers used for trainers often have steel threads. Take the female end from one of those. The threads should mate fine.

I LOVE the Toupe 143 as well. Great saddle. I rode it for a while, but I'm too heavy for it. I would crack the shell after a while. My teammate (male, 180lbs?) did as well.

Shimano SPD-SL pedals are perfect. Make sure the tension is as high as she's comfortable using.

Linking me to a google search is having me search :-/

The Moda seems like a solid option. But, any direct experience would trump that opinion. Read my edit above about whether 52cm is the right size.

I think the fit is the most important step before you do A vs B shopping. You could easily buy the wrong size then buy a new frame in a few months....or worse, commission a custom frame in the wrong size like I did

EDIT:

And if you can get V. Pendleton to offer any advice, that'd be AWESOME. (I've told this story before), but when I was a high school baseball player, I had the chance to speak to Hank Aaron on the phone. I was having a really bad season. During our chat, he didn't say anything that my coach hadn't already told me. But, because it was Hammerin' Hank, it was internalized. I went into the next week hitting like a mad man!

zizou

IIRC the CAAD10 is more orientated to street geometry in terms of BB drop and fork

However i know a couple of guys that have them - ive never heard any complaints about handling or it cause them difficulties. One downside is the dropout is really short - it might not sound like much but it would get annoying very quickly if changing gears regularly.

southernfox

All things being equal, the cheaper one: if she wants to get serious about track, she'll have a better idea about what she needs for her 2nd frame.

Tim O

carleton

Both Dolan and Felt offer off-the-rack entry to mid-level bikes that will get you very close to what might be your build.

Maybe go down to the velodrome and see what others are riding and ask for opinions. Track's sometimes have a favorite recommendation. For example, at DLV, a disproportionately many of the elite men are riding the top Fuji these days.

Don't buy someone else's problem.. They are just gonna take your money and buy what they should have bought in the first place (I've done this several times, too, with bike crap and other).

carleton

I'd pass on that. As Zizou states, it's a road geometry. Low BB, slack head tube. It's fine if you already have it. But, if you are looking to buy something, you have better options for the same money.

Tim O

Tim O

carleton

Moda seems to be in line with what other standard frames are doing.

To see what "standard" is for yourself, look at the geo charts for similarly sized:
- LOOK 496
- Felt TK1 / TK FRD
- Dolan DF4

You'll see all of those raced at the highest levels of the sport and their manufacturers publish their geo charts.

Track BBs are higher than road BBs because of pedal strike on steep tracks at slow speeds. I imagine that your daughter doesn't weigh very much given her height. This means that she could probably slowly crawl around in the turns of a steep track like a spider...assuming her pedal doesn't strike.

Slack head tubes and long fork offsets help road bikes become more stable on long descents. They adversly affect handling on the track as the track pushes laterally into the back (as you are angled against it). I can't fully explain it. But, a rider going from a "road" geo track bike to, say, a LOOK 496 geometry will say that the LOOK handles like a Porsche 911. Agile and precise.

carleton

The bike looks great and fairly new and unharmed.

It's like a pair of shoes. It doesn't matter how great a deal and how new they are, if they don't fit, you won't wear them

Tim O

carleton

hahahahahahahaha!

carleton

BTW, I think that V-Sprint is owned by Jess Varnish's family. I could be wrong.

This Jess Varnish:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Varnish

Tim O

taras0000

I would go with the Moda, simply because it's actually a track frame.

Barring that, top tube fit is what will be most important. What sort of proportions does she have? Leggy/rangy with a shorter torso, or longer torso and shorter legs? This makes a difference in fit. I resemble a gorilla more than most modern hominids, and if I were riding a frame based on inseam length, I would be 3 standard sizes too short! That's a 6cm difference in top tube length. I need a 56-57cm top tube despite an inseam that would put me on a 52-52cm seat tube.

Also keep in mind that if one is between sizes, it's almost better to go with the longer frame as track definitely facilitates a longer and deeper position.

Tim O

Poppit

carleton

Tim, as Southernfox touches on, whatever frame you choose now likely will not be your daughter's last. It's good that you are considering lower priced options.

Whatever you get now, she'll ride the hell out of it and form opinions along the way. As she matures as a trackie, she'll develop preferences (as I assume she did on the road).

Just be sure to only buy solutions to problems that this first choice may have and not buy new problems. You are doing the right thing by asking for feedback.

Also, as I'm sure you know, track racing should help her road racing game. A typical race day has a lot of intensity and variety. There are lots of well known examples of household name roadies that ride track for fitness, training, money, and/or simply fun. The skills that are required for track racing help on the road (e.g. bike handling in tight quarters, easily carrying a high cadence, interval training, confidence at high speeds...). You can always spot the trackies on the group rides, they are the ones not afraid to ride within a few inches of each other