Danny01

I started a thread a while ago on this, but never really found something that I thought was ideal. I'm looking to do a touring specific build. Something that will handle 250lb total weight on gravel and pothole laden roads.

My requirements are:
650b
strong
36 holes
~20mm internal width (I'm leaning towards using 1.5x650 Schwalbe G One tires)
disc specific
black
alloy
under 500g
don't care about price

So far I have the Velocity Aileron and Dyad on my list, but then came across people recommending against Velocity rims due to weakness near the spoke holes.

Metaluna

I just went through the same exercise trying to find a 650b rim for a "road plus" conversion on my cyclocross bike. From what I can see, Velocity is about the only option if you want 36 holes in 650b (Aileron, A23, Dyad, Cliffhanger, Atlas). As for the "weak" spoke holes, it sounds like you got some bad or outdated advice. Unless something has changed very recently, the Dyad in particular is a very popular touring rim with a good (dare I say bombproof?) reputation. I believe the Aileron is pretty popular among the 650b gravel crowd as well. I think Velocity might have had issues here and there with specific rims (A23 maybe?), which they probably fixed, but so does just about every other manufacturer sooner or later. I have 700c 36h Ailerons on my cyclocross bike right now, and they seems to be fine rims (and look really cool if you like that all black, disc-only look IMHO). I tensioned them to 120kgf drive side and have probably 2K+ miles on them, all the way from when I weighed >300 lb down to about 220 now. No spoke hole cracks last time I looked, though admittedly I don't check all that often.

For my 650b experiment, I ended up going with HED Belgium Plus 32h just because they're a bit wider than Ailerons, I was able to find them for about the same price, and they have a great reputation. Plus, the hub choices are greater at 32h as well (I settled on DT Swiss 350's). My spokes are still on order so it will probably be at least a couple of weeks before I get everything built and rideable (maybe longer if my frame can't clear the 47mm WTB tires I bought, and I have to order smaller ones).

I *think* I've seen some prebuilt 650b wheels with 36 spokes, but I'm not sure what rims they used. Possibly Sun Ringle or Weinmann?

ThermionicScott 

The Pacenti Brevet is available in 36h and weighs ~430g, but is not black and is a little shy of your width goal.

Their Forza checks all the boxes apart from being available in 36h. (And doesn't appear to be in stock at the moment...)

Metaluna

The Forza is also available in asymmetric which is a huge plus IMHO (as is the A23 but it’s a bit narrow). In fact now that I think about it, I’m not sure why I chose the HED over it . Maybe just width and reputation.

seeker333

Drop the disc-specific requirement and Velocity Atlas (or it's economy cousin NoBS) will meet your needs. Atlas is sold as regular or polished versions. NoBS deletes eyelets and polishing for half the cost.

If money is no object, Atlas Polished rim is hard to beat. Rivendell (who ordered the design by Velocity) sells Atlas in wheelset form with XT hubs, or even fancier White Industry hubs. You'd have to special order for disc hub, so there would be some delay. Basically custom wheel build by Rich Lesnick, Rivendell handles the ordering logistics.

Metaluna

I think they also fail the <500g requirement. Other than that they look indestructible .

Retro Grouch 

If you're looking for a recommendation that nobody disagree's with, you are going to be looking for a very long time.

Dan Burkhart 

The NoBS is the same extrusion as the Atlas, just without eyelets and no machined brake surface.
However, I don't think it's offered in 650B. The Atlas is.

veloz

I've been running A23's 3+ years for urban, gravel and CX. I don't think you'll find anything better than Velocity.

Arthur Peabody

I buy rims advertised as for tandems. Back when I bicycled across the country I wanted sturdiness more than anything else. I've kept the habit.

cyccommute 

Take two things out of your requirements...strong and disc specific.

Any rim can be disc specific. You just don't use the brake track. Yes, it makes them slightly taller but, over all, it makes no difference.

Now that the prelims are over, let's get to the main event...strength. My flame suit is on so here, we go. Rim strength doesn't matter. Wheels are made strong because they have "strong" rims. The rims serve little purpose other than a convenient place to put the spokes and tires. The rim is just a soft metal hoop that slides up and down on the spokes as it is loaded and unloaded as well as having little rigidity to side force. On its own, a rim can be easily bent into just about any shape...up to the point where the aluminum fractures.

The real strength of the wheel comes from the spokes which are usually an afterthought when it comes to wheel building. Therein lies the problem that most people fail to address when it comes to wheel building. The main failure mode of wheels is broken spokes. A broken rim doesn't necessitate a total rebuild of a wheel. It's almost trivial to swap out a rim with existing spokes. Finding a replacement rim with the same ERD is the most difficult part.

On the other hand, the failure of a single spoke makes a wheel suspect. The failure of a second spoke raise that level of suspicion to almost confirmation that the wheel is unsalvageable. Most people would agree that a third spoke failure means that the entire wheel is irredeemable.

Stop and think about that for a moment. A broke rim is no big problem. A broken piece of wire that is around 2mm in diameter is far more indicative of a problem and signals the possible failure of the entire wheel.

As others have said here, Velocity makes a good rim. But so does Mavic, Sun, Alex and about a dozen other companies. None of them are significantly better than any other rim. Choose the weight that you want to push around (I always choose the lightest ones) but don't worry about their overall strength.

The critical part to worry about is the spoke. For your application (and just about any application), you should look into a "triple butted" spoke. These are spokes that have 2.3mm head diameters rather than the normal 2.0mm diameter of a double butted spoke. This article from Wheel Fanatyk explains why we should use them more often. I've been using them for about 20 years and they have solved lots of broken spoke issues I had before I started using them. There is little weight penalty for using them and a huge increase in wheel strength.

DT Swiss, Pillar, Sapim and Wheelsmith all sell version of the spoke. Yes, they are more expensive but for your application, the extra price will give a huge return.

3alarmer 

.
...I'll mention this, only because nobody else has.

By requiring your wheel rims and tyres to be 650 b on a touring bicycle, you almost guarantee that if you blow, cut, or otherwise damage a tyre beyond repair while touring to such interesting spots as Seldom Seen, West Virginia, you pretty much guarantee you'll have trouble finding a replacement in the local economy.

ThermionicScott 

Walmart sells "27.5"er bikes now, so spare tubes won't be too far away at least. People with recumbents or other specialty bikes know to carry a spare tire when touring in the boonies.

cpach

Stan's Arch mk3 comes in 36h in 650b, 22mm internal, disc only, 420g. I like the Stan's rims I've built.

Otherwise Velocity.

79pmooney

Question all ... Have you heard of an actual case of Velocity rims cracking or otherwise failing at the spoke holes?

I've read several times that they are weak there because no re-enforcing there, either thimble or ferrule. I've been using the slightly heavier Velocity Aeros for years and never had an issue there. (155 pounds, reasonably kind to wheels, ride them year 'round and they are my preferred winter wheels (Portland, OR, a lot of night riding. Build my own wheels, (32) DT Competitions laced to middle Park specs X3.)

So, help me, is this just a rumour is is there truth to it?

Ben

nfmisso

No

nfmisso

I am a fan of Velocity rims: Dyads and Aeroheat (559 version of Dyad) on my singles and NoBS on our tandem. The NoBS does have that once around brake burp due to not being machined, but it is a very minor annoyance.

Velocity rims are easy to build because they practically no axial or radial run-out.

Velocity Wheels - Hand Made in USA

cyccommute 

I've had some crack there but I've also had a lot of other brands that have ferrules that have cracked at the same place. l see it as a general problem with all rims rather than any one particular brand issue.

Danny01

a quick google will bring up instances of Velocity rims cracking. I'm not sure how the frequency compares to others like HED.

ColonelSanders

Surely it can't be a case that heavier Down Hill and Touring rims that get sold are all a scam/farce and a 450gram rim is all that one needs?



How does swapping out a rim, not necessitate a wheel rebuild?

cyccommute 

Pretty much, yes, especially for "touring" rims. A Mavic Open Pro weighs 435g for a 700C. An A719 weighs 565g. That's a 130g difference. Based on the density of aluminum, that's 48ml or less than 1/4cup of aluminum. Assuming a 600mm ERD, a 19mm width and a 622mm outside diameter for both, the surface area of the wheel 940 sq. cm. That 48ml of aluminum spreads out over the surface area to make the rim 0.05cm thicker. In 'Merican numbers that 0.02". Do you honestly think that 0.02" of a soft material like alumium is going to make the rim significantly stronger?

To put it in a different context, that's roughly the thickness of aluminum foil.

Now before we go too far, I realize that triple butted spokes are only 0.3mm thicker than double butted. That is thinner than the 0.5mm thickness of the extra aluminum but the metal is different and it's used in a different way. Go read the Wheel Fanaytk article for more info but, the short version is, increasing the cross-sectional area of a rod greatly increases its strength. A rim isn't rod shaped so increasing it's thickness doesn't do much for the strength. And if the rod is made of a strong material like steel, increasing the cross-section greatly increase the strength.

A "wheel rebuild" is starting from the individual components, lacking the wheel, tensioning the wheel and truing the wheel. A rim replacement doesn't necessitate new spokes nor complete reconstruction of the wheel. It's a partial rebuild but it leaves out the most difficult part, i.e. lacing the wheel.

ColonelSanders

In the example you quote, the heavier wheel is heavier by 29.88%, so wouldn't everything be potentially 29.88% thicker?


And what's more, rather than a uniform spreading of the extra weight, wouldn't they concentrate on putting the extra weight in the most critical areas?


People talk of how they have never seen a busted Ryde Andra rim, and they weigh 815grams, surely they are providing much more strength than something almost half it's weight?

cyccommute 

Yes, they would be 30% thicker but when you do the math, the A719 has 210 ml of aluminum in it and the Open Pro has 161g of aluminum in it. Applying those volumes to the area, we come up with the A719 being 2.2mm thick and the Open Pro being 1.7mm thick. That's a 0.5mm difference and the difference is about 30%.

(Frankly I'm rather astounded that my math worked out that well. The surface area was just an estimate.)

The problem here is thinking that 30% is a large increase. It is but if it's 30% of a small number, it's still a small number

Maybe, maybe not. They've only go an extra 130ml of aluminum to work with and they have to spread that out over a fairly large area. The circumference of wheel at the ERD is 188cm. You couldn't put much aluminum in a very wide strip to much of a thickness. And, again, aluminum is soft, flexible and weak, it's not going to add much in terms of strength or rigidity to the rim.

You don't see very many rims that are "busted" anyway. They don't usually break because of impact. Any that I've seen that have broken because of impact have been because of spoke failure. Even in instances where the bike has been hit by a car, the wheel is buckled and broken because the spokes buckled or broke.

As for your example, look at the cost. You are dragging around almost double the weight over an Open Pro for only a marginal return. And I could certainly build up a wheel like that with thin spokes that would be delicate and prone to spoke breakage. I can build up a wheel with a steel rim...the strongest but heaviest rim you can buy...and again by using thin spokes, I can make it pop spokes fast enough to make Orville Redenbacher jealous.

Granted, I could use stronger spokes and make it into a wheel that is much, much stronger than any aluminum wheel but why? I can make a wheel that is strong, relatively light and very durable without having to go to the extreme of using superheavy parts. I'll guarantee that the ride will be better because I'm not trying to push around nearly a kilogram of weight out at the edges of the wheel where it has a huge impact.

Arthur Peabody

Back when I toured, I'd ride thousands of miles over a period of months, living outside. That's far enough to wear a rim out. The thicker rim takes more wear - at least for us rim-brakers.

AnkleWork

Maybe ride around the potholes?