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Chinese 3t Scatto copy

Old 03-27-18, 12:43 PM
  #1  
lean88
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Chinese 3t Scatto copy

hi guys, anyone have experience with the chinese copy of the 3t?

i ear some chinese road handlebars broken. (42cm and less than 200g.)
this model is 37/38cm and 300gr.
i cant post url but is simple to search in aliexprees as carbon sprint handlebar.
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Old 03-27-18, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lean88 View Post
hi guys, anyone have experience with the chinese copy of the 3t?

i ear some chinese road handlebars broken. (42cm and less than 200g.)
this model is 37/38cm and 300gr.
i cant post url but is simple to search in aliexprees as carbon sprint handlebar.
Are you typing with your toes?
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Old 03-27-18, 03:33 PM
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They've been out there for a bit now, and with the internet being a great resource for people to sprout negativity and bad reviews, I actually can't say I've seen any negative reviews of them. For all the horror stories of Chinese carbon out there, they really are possibly no worse an option than purchasing a set of name bars second hand that you don't know the history of. Chinese built right is every bit as reliable as a name brand
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Old 03-27-18, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
They've been out there for a bit now, and with the internet being a great resource for people to sprout negativity and bad reviews, I actually can't say I've seen any negative reviews of them. For all the horror stories of Chinese carbon out there, they really are possibly no worse an option than purchasing a set of name bars second hand that you don't know the history of. Chinese built right is every bit as reliable as a name brand


Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Are you typing with your toes?
no, with another part of my body
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Old 03-27-18, 07:39 PM
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Strong sprinter elite here - friend of mine - using 6 months, no problem.

Only point that make me worry about it is 300g chinese X 400g original... same external dimensions... where is it thinner than original?

Would like to see an X-ray comparison...
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Old 03-27-18, 09:04 PM
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I think this hits on the risk.

An eBay/Aliexpress company can write whatever they want in an ad and ship whatever they want as well. There seems to be little oversight or reprocussions.

There is incentive to lie and no penalties if caught.

If the bars break, what happens? If they actually weigh 750g, what happens? If they are 44cm wide, what happens?
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Old 03-27-18, 09:10 PM
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For example, I’ve literally seen an ad for a 5-spoke that had pics of slightly different wheels in the ad, all claiming to be the same product, one of which was an authentic Mavic IO complete with Mavic stickers! I posted it here on BF.
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Old 03-28-18, 12:17 PM
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Old 03-29-18, 02:35 AM
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Planet X do something that looks a bit like a scatto - Selcof Velodromo. No idea if any good but presumably a safer option than sourcing one from aliexpress
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Old 03-29-18, 04:22 AM
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Youd be mad to try some. Some may be ok, but some are certainly death traps. I have personally seen somebody break a set of Chinese bars from a standing start. It was very ugly and painful for the rider. Why risk your safety and the safety of others just to save a few dollars.
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Old 03-29-18, 04:48 AM
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I normally stay out of these discussions, as you aren't going to change anyone's mind in general.
Parts fail. Doesn't matter where they come from.
The differences are quality control and service past when you buy them. By doing your research and buying from "chinarello" sellers with long, detailed history and feedback you can usually suss out the former. The latter you're going to be on your own almost certainly. If 3T has recurring issues with bars (something that has certainly happened in the past) then they send out recalls/fixes. (doesn't help you at all if you're one of the one's that it happened to in the first place though) If your Chinarello's have broken on 40 people doing standing starts, it's very unlikely you'll ever know about it (other than word of mouth)

That said, there is no great outcry of chinarello bikes/bars/wheels/etc exploding under riders. Does it happen, yes. The question you have to answer for yourself is what is an acceptable amount of risk you're willing to take. Nobody can answer that for you.

Shaping/molding carbon is not some wizardly art. If a facility is set up to produce it in the first place, there's a good chance it's fairly well made. Most of the shoddy shops can't compete to stay in business. Not in every case, but this isn't the wild west any more of some dude making fake scatto's in his garage.

Personally, I have used knock off parts, however I don't ever recommend them to someone else.
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Old 03-29-18, 05:29 AM
  #12  
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A safer alternative- Dixie Flyer is offering a pretty sweet price on its new bars if you do a deposit on the first run: Track Bar ? Dixie Flyer Bicycles
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Old 03-29-18, 05:59 AM
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I've considered frames and wheels from various vendors with solid reputations (Deng Fu, Hong Fu and Light Bike, come to mind), but I would not go to eBay or Alibaba to buy knock off parts from any random vendor. I don't want to risk injuring myself or others.

And if you were to use a knock off product that failed and cause a crash that resulted in substantial injuries, I could very well see those injured riders coming after you for their medical expenses, plus pain and suffering.
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Old 05-29-18, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
And if you were to use a knock off product that failed and cause a crash that resulted in substantial injuries, I could very well see those injured riders coming after you for their medical expenses, plus pain and suffering.
This is quite possibly the craziest thing I've ever heard of on this forum. Would someone having a totally authentic Scatto breaking and causing them to crash be just a "racing incident" due to it not being fake? Are you ready to build statistical evidence of testing knock off handlebars for your case? Would any cycling governing body actually condone this.
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Old 05-29-18, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus magic View Post
This is quite possibly the craziest thing I've ever heard of on this forum. Would someone having a totally authentic Scatto breaking and causing them to crash be just a "racing incident" due to it not being fake? Are you ready to build statistical evidence of testing knock off handlebars for your case? Would any cycling governing body actually condone this.
I'll let him answer for himself, but I took his comment to mean that with a company that's legally allowed to sell bicycle parts in the United States (and several other countries), that there is some sort of recourse (from basic customer service crash replacement up to more serious legal judgements).

With "eBay" parts (the common name for direct-to-consumer parts sold by whoever with no guarantee of warranty or even legal authorization to sell bicycle parts in the US), one's options are very limited.

This is a basic problem that exists with all kinds of goods with White, Gray, and Black Market goods.

White Market being goods that are legal to be sold wherever they are sold. e.g. Nikon USA Cameras with USA warranties. BHPhoto and your local stores do this.

Gray Market being authentic goods but outside of the legally authorized area: e.g. Nikon Japan Cameras being sold on the USA with no USA warranty. BHPhoto does this and they'll say, "No US warranty".

Black Market being knockoff goods being sold with no warranty anywhere. Basically: Good luck...don't call us if there is a problem.

Last edited by carleton; 05-29-18 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 05-29-18, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus magic View Post
This is quite possibly the craziest thing I've ever heard of on this forum. Would someone having a totally authentic Scatto breaking and causing them to crash be just a "racing incident" due to it not being fake? Are you ready to build statistical evidence of testing knock off handlebars for your case? Would any cycling governing body actually condone this.
People do this (successfully) ALL THE TIME when there's a manufacturer defect in some part. If you decide to race on dodgy stuff, I think a really plausible claim can be made that you materially caused it by being reckless in using that equipment.
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Old 05-29-18, 08:03 PM
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I think there's a much better case for the 'I bought this random **** off the internet that all the people in the know think is dangerous' vs 'My shop guy screwed up my tubs'
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Old 05-29-18, 09:49 PM
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I don't make consumer products, but I think that part of the issue is:

- Engineering standards, and
- Insurance

For example, the Consumer Products Safety Commission must certify bicycle helmets that are sold and used in the US.

The United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC or Commission) is an independent agency of the United States government. The CPSC seeks to promote the safety of consumer products by addressing “unreasonable risks” of injury (through coordinating recalls, evaluating products that are the subject of consumer complaints or industry reports, etc.); developing uniform safety standards (some mandatory, some through a voluntary standards process); and conducting research into product-related illness and injury.
This helps consumers feel confident that, for example, a helmet really will protect their (or their kid's) noggin during a tumble and the helmet isn't just a $50 piece of plastic.

This also helps event promoters like USA Cycling get insurance for events when the insurer says, "We'll underwrite your event if you require that all participants wear helmets and that those helmets be approved by the CPSC. That way in the unlikely event that a person wrecks, the damage can at least try to be limited because the rider was wearing a helmet that meets modern standards."

Hell, this could easily be the difference between a mild concussion and brain damage...or worse.

But, if a rider is using "COSTCO WRAP 3 Helmet - ONLY $75" then it's a crap shoot.

Also, in order to sell products in the US, a company must have a certain amount of insurance in order to handle such unforeseen incidents, if for some reason a faulty product does slip through quality assurance or some some condition occurs that was simply missed (e.g. the Carleton Co. Carbon Seatpost doesn't age well and cracks after 6 months in Georgia heat. This happens. We see such recalls all the time. Here's the list: https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/ There are currently 7,413 recalls out right now (most are very old). This is a good thing. Bad that it's happening, but good that we have such organizations compelling companies to deal with the issues.

Currently on it:
- May 24, 2018 (just 5 days ago) IKEA Recalls Bicycles Due to Fall Hazard: https://www.cpsc.gov/recalls/2018/ik...to-fall-hazard
- May 9, 2018 Specialized Bicycle Components Recalls Bicycles with Stout Cranks Due to Fall and Injury Hazards: https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2018/Sp...Injury-Hazards
- March 15, 2018 Louis Garneau Recalls Bicycle Helmets Due to Risk of Head Injury: https://www.cpsc.gov/recalls/2018/lo...of-head-injury
- October 4, 2017 SRAM Recalls Bicycle Brakes Due to Crash and Injury Hazards https://www.cpsc.gov/recalls/2018/sr...bicycle-brakes
- I could go on...

These companies are actively dealing with those issues. That is a good thing.

Last edited by carleton; 05-29-18 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 05-30-18, 04:51 AM
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some articles that might be relevant to this discussion
https://www.bikebiz.com/features/snap-crackle-pop
https://www.bikebiz.com/features/chinarello

I often wonder, what's more dangerous... a generic carbon wheel or a 10 year old Hed/Mavic/Zipp that's on it's 4th owner with an unknown history. Maybe neither? Maybe both.
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Old 05-30-18, 11:16 AM
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Thanks for the links. They go in depth explaining several points of view.

I agree that "Chinacarbon" parts can be as strong or stronger than the latest-greatest, being that it's easier to over-build than it is to surgically shave off areas that aren't necessary.

I think it's difficult for companies to say, "If their stuff breaks, you are S.O.L. but if our stuff breaks you can demand a replacement or even sue us..." because that may remind people that they can do that...or it's even inviting people to do that.

It's a tough position to be in.

I've enjoyed such service. I went through maybe 4 Specialized Toupe 143 saddles within 2 months as all the shells cracked in the center. Same for my teammate who was of normal weight and he went through like 6 of them. As soon as we saw the crack, we just took it to the shop and got a new one over the counter. No muss. No fuss.

I think customer service is where companies will win. But, also, there has to be a concerted effort of the bike community to support these companies and not go cheap. But, these companies have to not artificially inflate prices, either (looking at you, LOOK, Pinarello, Campagnolo).

I often wonder, what's more dangerous... a generic carbon wheel or a 10 year old Hed/Mavic/Zipp that's on it's 4th owner with an unknown history. Maybe neither? Maybe both.
As I learned in college: It depends....
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Old 06-06-18, 08:30 AM
  #21  
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I’ve been burned with cheap Chinese junk on the internet (ebay and Amazon – I tend to avoid Alibaba). I’m surprised at the junk that gets on Amazon – its not much different than ebay.

I’ve also gotten some great products at mfg direct prices. The latter happens when I do my research and find a company with years of happy customers. Although – a lot of those shops will change specifications without any warning and because of language differences often are not good at answering specific questions.

I’m not sure that a generic Carbon frame is any better than a generic aluminum frame? Its all in the design and layup with carbon. Why pay more for carbon when there is not information on it?
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Old 06-06-18, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Im not sure that a generic Carbon frame is any better than a generic aluminum frame? Its all in the design and layup with carbon. Why pay more for carbon when there is not information on it?
I agree.

On a related note,

Here is one particular issue that I encountered when dealing with an eBay aluminum track bike. I think it was a $200 VISP. A local junior (mostly road) racing team had bought some for their juniors to try the track and maybe see if they liked it with hopes of going to junior nationals and whatnot.

One girl and coach were having trouble adjusting her rear wheel and setting the chain tension, so I offered to help. I'm sure that I've set rear wheels in track bikes thousands of times, but for the life of me, I could not get that wheel centered with a decent chain tension.

I figured out that something in the rear triangle was welded crookedly and it was impossible to set the wheel straight. Once you torqued-down the nuts, the wheel was cocked to the side. I looked at the coach and girl and shrugged and said something like, "It's defective. I really don't know what to do. Can you take it back?"

That would be very frustrating for me as an athlete, coach, or parent in that situation.
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Old 06-15-18, 04:06 PM
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So do you guys ban small built frames from your tracks (eg Yamaguchi/Sachs/*insert whatever NJS frame builder)? Do you ban people with products that are from companies that no longer exist (Colossi)? Or no longer have support in the United States (eg Dolan)?

I'm not trying to say that knock off products are actually good, I'm saying that it's a very slippery slope with how small the bicycle industry actually is, and how difficult it would be to actually enforce any sort of standard without going down a route a la NJS certification.

No one managed to even get any money out of Spinergy with their 4 spokes IIRC.
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Old 06-15-18, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus magic View Post
..........................and how difficult it would be to actually enforce any sort of standard without going down a route a la NJS certification.
.....
Actually bicycles sold in the USA have to comply with CPSC requirements (track bikes are exempted see https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manuf...-Requirements/)
The EU also has requirements.
And as we know the UCI has requirements.
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Old 06-16-18, 12:45 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by octopus magic View Post
So do you guys ban small built frames from your tracks (eg Yamaguchi/Sachs/*insert whatever NJS frame builder)? Do you ban people with products that are from companies that no longer exist (Colossi)? Or no longer have support in the United States (eg Dolan)?

I'm not trying to say that knock off products are actually good, I'm saying that it's a very slippery slope with how small the bicycle industry actually is, and how difficult it would be to actually enforce any sort of standard without going down a route a la NJS certification.

No one managed to even get any money out of Spinergy with their 4 spokes IIRC.
There are several concerns involved:

- What equipment is safe for use at a track (old or new, big name or anonymous manufacturer)
- What is allowed in competitions by the governing body.
- What is allowed for use by insurance companies to limit liability. All tracks have insurance. All race events have insurance.

What may be allowed for use on the velodrome by the velodrome director may not be allowed during a sanctioned race.
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