55 Traveler

I'm generally okay at truing wheels. I tend to true them in the frame and use a hand on the seat stay or fork with my thumbnail against the rim to detect the highspots and adjust away. I've never been fully satisfied with the technique, though. I tend to nibble at the wobbles a 1/4 turn or half turn at a time. Eventually the wheels seem good enough and I quit.

It seemed that a dial indicator could give more direct feedback on how much wobble I have, how much difference each adjustment turn was making and would verify that I was constantly improving matters. Right? Anyhow I was in a local machine tools store and saw they had a really cheap dial indicator set that had a magnetic stand with lots of adjustable joints for the grand price of $25.

I just picked it up last night and its too early to call the experiment a success. I can see that a truing stand would still help, in that I am using the unit on my Park bike repair stand. Its magnetic base will clamp onto the lower leg of the bike stand well enough but you have to be pretty delicate while turnng the wheel to keep from shifting the bike. While doing the front wheel I just tightened up the headset to keep it from swinging.

You definitely see the wobble in the dial indication. It looks like about 0.010" (ten thousandths of an inch) swing is needed to look reasonably true. I still have trouble with the interaction between lateral runout and vertical runout.

So far I'd call it a qualified success but I think, with a little practice, I can develop a technique and have better end results than before.

Any body else ever tried this?

David S.

rootboy 

I have several dial indicators but have never tried this. Personally, I'd say if you're working down to ten thousandths, you may be going a bit too far, but what the heck? I do that kind of thing all the time. I know that Park sells indicators you can attach to their truing stands but I kind of thought this level of accuracy was unnecessary when it comes to wheels. Cool idea though. You can really get your wheels dialed in with that tool.

wahoonc

I know sixtyfiver uses dial indicators. I use a regular Park TS2.2 for my wheels. I have pulled many a wheel back to close enough using the bike frame. I have no clue what would be considered good tolerance. As long as I don't get excessive pulsing when using rim brakes and no noticeable hop I consider it good enough. FWIW you are going to have variation in the tires, tubes and rims that you probably can't adjust out. I know on several sets of rims I have the weld joint produces a minor hop. If I get my wheels within 1/16"(.0625) or so I am very happy, 1/8" (.125) works for me.

Aaron

clubman 

My wheelbuilder/mentor always used a dial indicator. He makes wheels as perfect as he can and when you ride them it, you imagine that you can feel the difference, although I'm sure you can't. He has his clamped on the truing stand with a hinged arm.

I don't use one, but I'm a hack.

mechBgon

My truing stand (TS 2.2) has four dial gauges. In order of usefulness, the most useful is the one that shows how far open the axle supports are...


...followed by the one for truing disc rotors. The TS-2di kit for lateral and radial truing are the least useful, and frankly are mainly for showboating to the clients and visiting reps. "Oh wow, look at all those dial gauges, that guy must be a real pro, etc etc." I true far faster and very accurately by sight and sound. Ultimately, the rim itself will end up the limiting factor, the resolution on the gauges is an order of magnitude beyond what many rims can be trued to. And then you flip the rim over and find that the other sidewall is marching to the beat of its own drummer, particularly older rims that aren't machined...

So as Abraham Lincoln says, those who like this sort of thing, will find this the sort of thing they like. But if you don't have dials, you can certainly do first-class work by sight and sound if you have the fundamental skills. If you do want to use dial gauges, you'll want to clamp the wheel into the stand to maintain an arbitrary "zero point" for reference... same applies to precision disc-rotor truing.

busdriver1959

I'd say that's a great way to spend $25. If you want to get fancy, you could spend a few bucks more on some pieces of angle iron, hacksaw a V in the top and bolt them to a block to give yourself a more stable platform to work with. One set for front wheels and one or two sets for whatever rear spacing that you work with most and you still have spent a lot less than the price of most truing stands out there.

photogravity

Sheesh Aaron, here we go again! I'm in 100% agreement with you on this. If I can get the wheel to a point where I can't feel pulsing when I brake or I can get the feelers on my truing stand in reasonably close (1/8" is good), then I call it quits. I just finished truing the front wheel that's going on my Hercules Kestrel last PM and I'm sure it will be fine. It is perfect for my purposes since it meets my expectations and needs. For someone that's a racer, has more experience in wheelbuilding or that is more OCD than I, this is probably less than perfect.

photogravity

+1 I'm a hack, too!

Harlan

Most of us are

David Newton

I'm OCD at some things, but not this. My thumb is good enough for wheel truing.
A micrometer is for guitar building.

Sixty Fiver

I only use the one stand and rear wheels get built on the outside and flipped to check for dish... the dial indicator is a very good tool for this.

I usually aim to build wheels that are 5 by 5 and although I can do this without dial indicators they are just another tool I use to build better wheels... they also help compensate for eyes that are getting a little older and am pretty sure my partner uses them to compensate for a lack of hearing as he cannot hear the scrape of a conventional indicator.

I have also built many wheels using nothing but the frame and zip ties or brakes as indicators and have sent many of those off to see the world... being able to do this is a good skill if you find yourself in the boonies and need to do some wheel work.

himespau 

that is a cool looking setup.

randyjawa 

Didn't know there was another way:-) Actually, I could never afford one of them fancy store bought models, so I built my own. I true to .005" or less which is stupid, since I then install a cheap set of tires that are not always all that round.

Anyway, my home made truing stand, with dial indicators for hop and wobble. You can also see my home made dishing tool laying on the bench...

55 Traveler

Nice setup mchBgon. (Edit: and randyjawa and sixty fiver)

I'm not trying to be overly anal here and the thumbnail against the rim always got me close enough in the end, but I also always felt unsure about how much of a turn to give each spoke, and even whether I was always going in the right direction. (I know which way to turn to push the rim in a particular direction. Sometimes it just seems like it doesn't respond and so doubt creeps in.) It justs seems like an actual indication of lateral runout might let me do a better job. Maybe I can eventually learn that "a wobble of this much needs about x turns of the wrench".

My dad was a piano tuner. He had a nice strobotuner as an aid. His comment: "If you can't tune a piano by ear the strobotuner won't help you much. If you can tune it by ear then the having the strobotuner will sure make things easier and quicker."

David

Sixty Fiver

You have to be using well machined parts to get down to very close tolerances and need to remember that even tension is far more important than getting a wheel down to those really close tolerances which only you will appreciate.

Tightest wheel set I ever built was 1/1000 lateral and vertical with almost perfect tensions and I put these under my friend's mountain bike... he hits the curb at 240.

A year later he took his bike in for it's regular warranty check and he said the mechanic who went to check his wheels was blown away to find that the wheels were within 2/1000 and asked him, "Who the hell built these wheels ?"

My partner used to build 0/0 wheels for racing and these were about as perfect as they came and still builds awe inspiring wheels... after lacing and tensioning he used a process of heating the wheel to remove any building stresses and from there would fine tune and repeat until the wheel perfect.

This is what happens when you work with machinists.

Sixty Fiver

It is comfortable... back won't let me stand or sit for too long at any stretch and I like to have a coffee when I build wheels so have my little one cupper there.

Amesja

What, nobody is going for accuracy in the Angstroms?

Bill Kapaun

I find a caliper to be useful simply to see how parallel the 2 rim flanges are to each other.
A wheel that has hit a curb can be "splayed out".
This can get you in deep trouble when trying the thumbnail method while mounted in the bike.
Continually pulling the "high spot" away from you can result in a bad hop.

Even a large crescent wrench can be adjusted to fit and used as a gauge.

rootboy 

Yeah. I was just trying to be supportive Sixty Fiver, and not poo poo the OP's idea too much. I use my dial indicators on my metal lathe, but only sometimes.

Chombi

You guys do have to admit that not all rims are perfectly made. Sometimes there can be a very slight misalignment on the rim walls at the seam rim which will always be felt by indicators and feelers to some extent, no matter what you do. so the point of trying to get everyting to within a thousandth of perfect true gets a bit pointless in such sitations. I'm fine with the wire feelers on my trueing stand, but I do understand the satisfaction of getting your wheels as true as physically possible, but can mortal cyclists really feel that thousandths when you ride??

Chombi

Sixty Fiver

I go both ways here... it comes down to people using what they are most comfortable with.

If using a dial improves someone's building and truing experience then I am all for it

Soil_Sampler

always did like your flywheel.

jimmuller 

Hmmmmmm, I've always trued wheels on the bike. Instead of using my thumbnail I just twist the brakes over, or squeeze down the brake lever, or lay something across the brake shoe, anything to get a stable tight tolerance. I can get better than a small fraction of a 1mm with that technique and lots of patience. I'd say working with 1/4 or 1/2 turns is way too much when things get close. Better to ease it in and take longer if necessary.

I try to work in groups of 4 adjacent spokes. That way I can pull the rim sideways without affecting hop, or change hop without pulling the wheel sideways. If I have to tweak just two spokes, one tightened and one loosened, I'll choose two that are both trailing or leading; if tightening or loosening two to affect just hop I'll chose one trailing and one leading. This sort pairing means that the net balance between tension of trailing and leading spokes is not affected.

But what do I know? Lot's of people have done many, many, many more wheels that I have.

wahoonc

Long lost twin?

Aaron

WJV

This was a quick 15$ project that produced some pretty true wheels.