obrentharris 

@retyred answered my call for a tall older bike with this Carlton from his archives. First photo courtesy of retyred.




I love this sort of project. Scrubbing and polishing are just the right kind of work that keeps my hands busy while my mind wanders a hundred different places. There's also a certain challenge to using just the right products and techniques to remove the dirt but not the paint and decals. I much prefer receiving a bike in this condition than one that has been already gone over. Happy as a pig in... well, you know.







Most parts are original to the bike, though a few key items are newer, as are the accessories.




The Simplex derailleurs for example.




The first generation TA crank also is a newer upgrade.







Originally sold at the legendary Hans Ohrt shop in Beverly Hills.




My plans for the bike are to restore it to the way it might have been ridden in the fifties or early sixties. The original derailleurs may be out of my budget, but I'll get to that in a later post.
I'm not planning any paint or touch up. Once I get it built up I'll re-evaluate.
First priority is cleaning it up and figuring out the model and age.

Brent

SJX426 

Looks like a fun project!
Is it the pic or is the front fork bent back? If so, easily repaired.
I would target period derailleurs!
The older a bike is the more I would like to see it with period parts. Maybe I should start looking for those that would align with the more recent vintage in my care? At least the original parts are in my possession for at least one actually 3. Hmm....

obrentharris 

What model is this, and how old is it? I welcome any and all assistance in the pursuit.




This defunct web page suggests that bikes with serial numbers beginning with "D" are from 1954 to 1955. @Kilroy1988 has pointed out to me in private conversation a few reasons why this bike is probably a few years newer than that, perhaps 1957. I believe I have found confirmation of his statements in the marks left by the original front derailleur.




The only derailleur I can find from the era with two band clamps low on the seat tube is the Simplex JUY 56, first introduced in 1956.




As for the model, the "Continental" model described in this screen shot from a 1958 Carlton catalog supplied to me by Kilroy1988 bears a strong resemblance to my bicycle. Some of the components are different and my bike has an all-chrome fork. Perhaps mine is from a year or two earlier or perhaps there was some variation in any given year. I welcome any and all assistance in the pursuit.



Brent

obrentharris 

Thanks. Yes the fork is slightly bent, which I knew when I purchased the bike. The seller provided good photos and accurate information.
Yes, I hope to find the correct derailleurs and shifters but it may be a difficult pursuit.
Brent

bikemig 

Cool bike. I recently picked up a 1958 Claud Butler Jubilee. It has some similar parts (brakes and the stem). I am going to do a resto mod with similar parts to the ones that came on your bike (27 inch wheels with normandy luxe competition hubs, simplex derailleurs, and a stronglight 49d crank.

Pcampeau

Great looking frame! Figuring out the the threading in those shifter bosses is oftentimes the hard part.

retyred

Brent, am so glad that the Carlton is in your hands. As I was packing it I was thinking about reneging on our deal. It is a vintage bike unlike anything I have encountered.
Parts whose names I will not divulge as I am sure you want that privilege. A lot of history to be researched and best of all, free membership into the clan of Carlton owners.

One more item: the earlier comment about your Carlton being associated with 1957 rather than 1954 as indicated by the serial number. During disassembly a slip of paper fell out of the seat tube with a bit of information re the Carlton. Will forward it to you with your recent purchases.

Kilroy1988 

You make me wish I'd looked inside the seat tube on my other Hans Ohrt Carlton Continental... That's the second story I've heard like that about a Carlton he sold. Regarding the serial #, I have an accumulating set of #s from frames matched rather accurately to the Carlton catalogs from throughout the 1950s, which is what I based my judgement on. My own Carlton Super Python is about 5,000 numbers older than Brent's frame and is a 1954 model at the earliest due to a couple of features.

Here's the Continental, though, for inspiration... This was a rare beast, indeed!

Looking forward to your progress with this, Brent.

-Gregory
(P.s. I'll check the seat tube of my 1970 Hans sold Super Course when I get home from work!)

retyred

Brent, a bit of background on your Carlton. I first saw it at San Clemente Cyclery this past June/July. Sue, the owner who ran the shop with her son had decided to close their shop. I was there to purchase a set of bicycle racks and the Carlton was the only bike left on the racks. According to her the bike had been in the shop for decades which accounts for the fading on one side due to sunlight through the front window.
My offer to purchase it was declined but later accepted when her son changed his mind about restoring it. I wish I knew more but her husband who passed on a decade ago was the last owner.

obrentharris 

Many thanks for this information. I enjoy piecing together any bits of a bike's history when it lands in my hands. Definitely looking forward to the piece of paper!
Brent

retyred

Brent, re the age of your Carlton: have you noticed the date code on the seat pin?

Kilroy1988 

Brent,

In case you are dealing with a Continental from 1954 or so (the only model using the Lindrick lugs at that time), here's the 1955 catalogue spread... Alas, 1954 is the one year from the mid-'50s that's alluded me for securing a copy! Do note that the fully-chromed fork was a clearly stated option in '55, as it was in earlier catalogues as well.

-Gregory

Charles Wahl

So when do we get to the bathing part?
I want to see something clean.

obrentharris 

Hah!
Slipped right past me.






Brent

Kilroy1988 

I'm sorry, but having had a few of these bikes and components items pass through my hands, the date on a non-frame component cannot be used to date a frame set. Carlton could have ordered a substantial pile of components in any given year and used them for quite some time afterwards, based on customer specifications - they could also have been sitting at Reynolds of their distributor for a substantial length of time as well. These bikes were not slapped together in a large factory, but put together in a relatively small shop (compared to our impressions of the bicycle industry) and stocks were built up, slowly used, and then re-supplied at intervals that could be quite lengthy.

More importantly in the case of this particular bicycle, which already has the characteristic addition of a pair of randonneur bars that have appeared on several Hans Ohrt Carltons that turned up in recent years (my example above included), the seat post and many other bits may have been sitting in Beverly Hills for a duration of time, with Hans providing the finishing touches to bicycles that were supplied less than complete from the UK.

If you're supplied with a receipt that was stuffed down that seat tube that says 1954, that's awesome - but it means a lot of Carlton fans will need to rethink how many bicycles were churned out at the Worksop factory on an annual basis!

-Gregory

nlerner

Sorry if this has already been noted, but there’s a fairly active Carlton Cycles FaceBook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1495959500629283//

Lots of UK members with deep knowledge of the company and its offerings.

obrentharris 

Oh no!
Do I finally have to join the dreaded Facebook?
Brent

Kilroy1988 

I was in the group for a while a couple of years ago. Some very knowledgeable fellows indeed, but after I took a hiatus from Facebook I quit the group and haven't rejoined yet... (EDIT: Okay, now I just went back and made a new request to join... Ha!)

I will note that traditional wisdom based on a couple of older websites date the D-prefix serial numbers to around 1953-1954, which is absolutely true... However, the E-prefix doesn't seem to appear until quite a bit later, so there's the very likely fact that the D-prefix continued for a few years rather than just a couple. Some confusion comes from those "very knowledgeable" members on other forums, such as those who claim that their bikes are from 1955 with an E-prefix but clearly have a model that was not included in the Carlton catalogues until 1957... Things like that add up to make a mess of things!

Looking forward to more progress on this bike, Brent! It should be pretty fabulous by the time you're finished with it. Cheers!

-Gregory

obrentharris 

I thought you'd never ask...
But first a couple of photos pre-cleaning for your amusement.







Some photos of the frame cleaned up. The chrome especially cleaned up nicely.
My apologies for the cluttered background in some of these photos but its dark and raining here so I couldn't take the bike outside for photos.















Component photos tomorrow.

Brent

Charles Wahl

Very nice. Now watching with more interest.
You may know this already, but odds are that the screws for those down tube shifter braze-ons are M5 x 1.0 (not 0.8). I believe these braze-ons are a Cyclo item, L25A, seen here on page 3 (thanks to Big Block, Kilroy1988 and C9H13N). See this thread, if you're looking for more info, though a lot of it is my false starts before finding the answer, and therefore boring. When I'm rid of a bunch of other projects, I'll keep up the search for a die in M5 x 1.0 size -- my ultimate goal is to fasten Simplex Retrofriction shifters onto two '50s frames that have this (now) oddball braze-on.

obrentharris 

Thanks for this Charles!
The whole shifter/derailleur mystery for this bike is one that I'm only starting to unravel.

As mentioned before, the wear on the downtube at a location lower than where most front derailleurs mount led me to believe that it must have been equipped with a mech that mounts quite low. The only one of those I've found of this vintage is the Simplex JUY 56. This idea is lent credence by the fact that the bike shop sticker is mounted unusually high, right where a conventionally mounted mech would partially cover the sticker.




In fact the Simplex Prestige that was on the bike when I received it did cover part of the sticker.




Now to the rear derailleur. This unusual cable stop leads me to believe that the frame was designed for a rear mech with two cables going to it.




However there is only one set of cable guides on the right side of the bottom bracket, leading me to believe that this was not designed for a derailleur with two cables running all the way from the shifters. Instead it must have been a split cable system where one cable controlled the spring tension and the other controlled the derailleur throw like this JUY 51 from VeloBase




This system relies on a small clamp that attaches the two cables just forward of the chainstay cable stop. There was just such a clamp attached to the derailleur cable of this bike.




The only two derailleurs I can find with this system are the Simplex Juy 51 and the Juy 543. The JUY 543 is definitely out of my price range.

So which shifters? My bike has bosses on either side of the down tube so I think we can rule out shifters with both levers on the same side. This does not leave any Simplex levers of the period that I can find in my meager searches. So your Cyclo suggestion certainly provides me with a way out!

To anyone who is reading this now or in the future please take everything I say with a large grain of salt: I took on this project partly because I know close to nothing about English bikes of this era and I want to learn.

I promise we will get to photos of clean components soon...

Brent

juvela

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headset is Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd model "S"

crown is Vagner model No. 11+





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gear mechs -

fine research on your part: spot on!

---

Kilroy1988 is stem on example you posted a GB Hiduminium or is it a Reynolds?






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Kilroy1988 

Mine had a GB Girder stem. Both that and the Reynolds example you posted were rather out of fashion by the mid-50s because a lot of prettier stems were released in the meantime! I personally understand why, as I found that piece very unattractive compared to numerous more elegant models often seen on these old British Lightweights... At least the GB didn't have that weird double stem-bolt!

-Gregory

juvela

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thanks very much for the response.

the Reynolds pattern with the double binder appears a dead ringer for a model of Centrix from France.

the first time I saw one wondered if it were done under license or perhaps the Centrix design was unpatented/uncopyrighted...

Centrix ceased play in 1962.

advert of 1939 -



advert of 1952 -

model shown at trade show in 1951 -







Centrix stem on Schwinn Continental of 1960 -



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repechage

the shop sticker I think is covering a shop transfer. I am not sure when the sticker type arrived- I think this is too early for original, perhaps applied at a service.