DrPete 

There's a progression, and it's all about finding the right group. If you think Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy back to the OP, this was clearly the fast kids' ride. There are a couple of them in this area too--I've done them a couple times, and they hurt. Those are NOT the rides where you learn.

Ideally, find a club with some serious riders who have a "no-drop" casual ride a day or two a week, and learn from them. They're out there.

substructure

Yeah, I got that too a couple of weeks ago. I pulled through when I could in the break, but others sat on until the end. I should have sat on more, because at 1km I was completely fried and couldn't muster enough energy to fart let alone stay with the locomotive that won.

CyLowe97

Ahh, the old Catch-22 of riding in a group.

mmmdonuts

It's like little league and other organized sports. You don't jump in with the big boys until you've played in the lower levels. So don't show up to the 50+ rider A+++ pace ride if the only thing you've done before is an MS150 training ride.

timmyquest

As we learned yesterday...

For the record, i was doing (because of the person in front of me) what you were doing (because of me)...srrrzly

DrPete 

Well, I was alluding to the several-years-old OP. The ride he's describing is clearly a ride with some serious, high-level racers, and the fact that they don't abide someone who doesn't know what they're doing is understandable.

In fact, the dangerous wackos who THINK they know what they're doing are why I quit road racing. Just recently in a local cat 4 race a rider did some sketchy shiat, took down a bunch of riders, and ended up needing his face reconstructed. There are teams and riders in this area who are known to be sketchy. I wasn't a strong enough athlete to just upgrade my way out of that peloton, so self-preservation kicked in and I decided to become a tri geek.

Bottom line is that some folks get yelled at because they deserve it for doing something dangerous/stupid. That's not being an elitist.

DrPete 

Some groups are faster than others. Start with the slow ones. Sorry I didn't make that as clear as I should have...

timmyquest

When do we get to start yelling? I've only got two races under my belt, and for the most part i'm pretty slow, but i can recognize someone who hasn't ridden in a pack much. Yesterday there was a young buck who was all over the place--i didn't yell, i'm a hack, but i did make sure to get way in front of him.

Is there a yelling category? A yelling license? How about a clinic?

I could think of two good reasons to steer clear...

mmmdonuts

No argument here. Some people take it further. A teammate of mine from many moons ago punched a guy in the head (helmet) in the middle of the district champ crit for riding squirrely. This was the 1/2/3 race and I missed it because I was up the course in a break. I would have pissed my chamois had I seen that. He was so mad he pulled himself from the race rather than face relegation. A standup thing to do.

The Octopus 

Ah, How I fondly recall this thread from its original days..... Having re-read parts of it, I still agree with the OP and I can confirm that yelling and the laying on of hands still occurs in competitive rides and races with the same frequency and for the same reasons as it did three years ago....

Now that the tundra has finally thawed, the flowers are up, and there's a fresh crop of new riders out there trying to hang with the big dogs (who have all been on the road for two months well before the thaw and the appearance of flowers), the yelling will commence anew. Got to love the sounds of spring.

mollusk

I disagree, dear doctor. I've learned a lot from the fast kids ride. Mostly I have learned humility.

DrPete 

There's plenty to be learned (humility probably the first). I should have said it's not where you learn the basics of paceline riding.

CyLowe97

This is true, but one of the best things that could be done by elite (note I did not say elitist) riders when a newbie shows up is not to yell at them, but to perhaps say, "Hey, we're glad you came out to the ride, but we would prefer if you joined the (insert day) ride where we work on paceline skills, etc, before you join the hammerfest of trust and yelling...."

I suggested this on the first page of the thread and it was summarily ignored. That's part of the problem. Newbies are expected to magically know when the developmental/lower speed rides are taking place, yet are not given the right information.

But if that hasn't sunk in by post 1200 or so, then what can one expect?

Sure, it's not everyone's job to lead a newbie by the nose, but when the information is at hand and is not provided, certain stereotypes (e.g., the 'elitist' tag) get thrown around, whether just or unjustly applied.

...molotov cocktail hurled... thread goes on...

mollusk

For the most part this is correct. The one major basic fact of serious paceline riding that you won't learn on the "easy" paceline rides is that you always pull off INTO the wind. On the easy rides they always pull of into the traffic.

patentcad

They still yell at me sometimes, but I don't hear them all the time. F'em.

patentcad

If they're not going to make this thread a sticky, it is incumbent upon the Road Nazi Contingent to continually bump it.

You have your orders.

substructure

Would 'getting called down' count?
I usually get called down a lot by my peers. It happened yesterday.

"You need to quit wasting so many bullets early on in the race. And learn who to go with"
Right in front of everybody. I would have said something if it wasn't true. I felt like a little kid.

DrPete 

Exactly. Racing for a $50 LBS gift certificate is not worth risking life, limb, and career. Unfortunately there are folks in the local Cat 4 peloton who ARE willing to take risks and not know WTH they're doing. So I've decided to steer clear. I hear it's much better in the Masters peloton but I'm not old enough. Oh well, I have a few years to get stronger.

kudude

i wish i had bullets to waste.

timmyquest

See the guy in the light blue and red helmet, all the way in the back--on the right sitting up? Yeah...that's me.

At this point, top 10, or i'll sit up and watch the carnage. I lost the top 10 thing, so coming in at the back of the pack in one piece is A-OK with me.

ElJamoquio

The hell it was. Several times the OP mentioned the Wednesday ride as the teaching ride.

kudude

CyLowe97

Oh snap, indeed. But it was as if the newbie had to magic this teaching ride out of thin air, only after getting in over their head on a Tuesday night and potentially putting a pack of seasoned riders in jeopardy.

My simple suggestion was this: Why not make the Wednesday night or whenever 'teaching' ride a prerequisite for joining the Tuesday ride?

Would that be too much to suggest overtly before this whole thing gets going? Or does it somehow violate unwritten rules of having to learn the hard way?

It's one thing to yell at someone out on the road. That may be warranted. It's another thing to proactively coach someone with the rules/expectations before they join a ride to head at least some of that yelling off at the pass, which this thread is obviously attempting to do. But not every new rider reads this hallowed thread.

MrCrassic 

I haven't raced much, but I agree with EventServices in that if you do something stupid, you should get yelled at.

A fast and serious training ride is not the venue to learn the basics of paceline/peloton riding. There are groups for that which will correct you much less harshly.

I haven't been in a race where someone did something stupid (since I was always in the back ), but I've seen races where those things have happened...and it's not pretty.

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Flatballer

I got yelled at this weekend, by my own teammates, for attacking up the shoulder in a road race. My teammate, as well as a couple other riders gave me **** for it. I felt pretty safe, but whatever. It was pretty clear, except for a little bit of gravel at one driveway. I was gonna bail to the grass if I had to, I wasn't planning on taking out the peloton. Another rider managed to take out most of the peloton later anyway.