timorez

riverwave

Finally got to visit Bikefix (they’re not open weekends). Tried their Vello+ on local flat streets. It pulled away smoothly and quietly. Their Vello Urbano had been damaged by someone who’d borrowed it so wasn’t possible to try the bike in non-electric mode. Nice looking bikes, but I found them to be quite a bit bigger folded than they appear in the videos - I think it’s down to camera angles used. Anyway, having borrowed a non-electric 6 speed Brompton for several weeks I’m finding its size so convenient in shops and at home I’ve gone and ordered their electric version (which I also tried briefly in London). And my partner just bought a non-electric B as well. Oops!

childcarepro

Is the 1 kg (7.7%) difference that noticeable?

Bill Wilby

For anyone interested in the Vello Plus I have published this user report and I will try and answer questions people may have, https://cycleforfun.ca/the-vello-plu...ng-and-review/

snazpizaz

Hi

I tested rided one at the dealer in Bloomsbury London. I was tossing up between a brompton and a vello.
That was about 2 yrs ago.

The dealer was quite new to the bike and a bit uncertain about how to service it.
He wouldn't let me fold it myself because he was concerned the magnetic catch might snap off which wasn't an encouraging sign - it did look remarkably flimsy to me.
When i preped the bike for the test ride - the seat post clamp failed, ruining it's serrated grip pattern and the dealer had to pop in one lying around on his bench. Again that wasn't an encouraging sign - if the fancy lathed part fails.
The ride was a very good fit - very comfortable. A bit like riding the M size Brompton. A bike designed for a bit of forward lean and nifty, speedy cycling.
The electric push up the hill was pretty useless quite frankly and i missed not being able to switch to gears. I had to get off and walk the last 1/3 of each hill.
I was keen on the geared version after my test ride but i got sick of waiting for the UK dealer to supply them.
The model i test rode had the handlebars which pop out and hang down on rope and i liked them alot but wondered if they were or wouldn't be a tad wiggly after a while.
The bike felt like a good weight but i remember being surprised at how big it looked folded.
About a yr after i test rode - the vello website added a KG to the weight of every bike - i asked about that and they said they was always that heavy - they just didn't declare it correctly.

I decided on the brommie for the following reasons:
1 i got sick of Vello not expanding into the UK as promised.
2. I wasn't sure about the dealer's confidence in the product or Vello's strategy for supplying UK dealers
3. The brommie still outbeats all in terms of smallest folding size
4. I discovered there's a huge after-sales market of mods and hacks for brommies with very robust diversity - you can configure and customise a brommie in every which way. And now there's electric and titanium brommies and a large ti-brommie after sales market - so you can get brommies weight right down to 6-7-8kg. You can also change the gearing options significantly and add a Schlumpf Drive both options of which can lean the bike in favour of use on hilly areas like Scotland. It's worth doing some research on that if you think small wheels means not good for hill climbing - that's curiously not the case. The main issue is stability of small wheel riding on off-road / pot-hole pitted terrain. There are tyre options to negate that to some extent.
5. I still feel that Vello are missing a trick not letting the bike be more customisable and i also felt the lack of after sales community, at least in the UK made it less secure if things go wrong.
6. I read alot of info on the Vello electric motor technology and experts were divided about putting a battery in with the engine - re: quicker burn out. - there are better kits available out there.
7. the re-chargable sell was a bit of a con - it doesn't seem developed enough technology yet and isnt true rechargable.

I started off totally anti brommie - regarding it as an ugly 80s throw-back that's not worth bothering with - but i had a 360degree turn around on that when i started to look at the quality control and after market community. It's capacity to fold down small consistently out bid all the competition - i can fling it on an overhead luggage rack on a train in a way i cannot for any other model. Let's be clear all these bikes are expensive stealable items to leave out of sight.
If i got an additional vello today - i would go for the ti-derailleur gear (not hub) version perhaps for better off-road / track-road cycling assurance. But a modified brommie can match if not beat it hands down as a riding machine. I do recommend you pay a visit to the London Dealer. The brommie shop is close by in Covent Gardeand the vello dealer deals in brommies too - so you can compare them easily. There's a close competitor in the Ahooga e-bike which is supplied by velorution in Marylebone high st. The other interesting model currently available is the titanium Helix folding bike from Canada - very similar approach to the vello but i think with bigger wheels.

hope thats of use

Bill Wilby

Thanks Snazpizaz, I could update some of your concerns, first the power on the hills. Did you have the Vello Plus operating from a phone and were you able to change and view the power settings?

I am surprised with your comment regarding lack of push, in my report I detail several hills climbed that one would never encounter in most urban environments. But what I am learning with electric assist is that it really comes down to the riders expectations. Granted the Vello is no power house with it's 250 watt motor but it is also a lightweight and very efficient bike. I was surprised that I could get the Vello up 20% grades but there is now the two speed option with a choice of a lower gear or a higher gear offered by Vello.


For me the folding handlebars are very well designed and secure, I would be very surprised if the large clamps that hold the handlebars in the riding position loosen over time. Likewise I have no concern with the folding mechanism and the magnetic locking latch.



As to the question of the Vello's self charging, I think the problem is the impression the phrase self charging gives. This may give some the impression that you sit on the bike and it magically self charges as it powers you along!


The way it works for me is that I am able to charge the battery while riding the Vello, the amount of charge is displayed in real time in my phone. The amount of charging is depending on the selected power mode. Charging can happen on the flat, down a hill and with a tail wind. At the same time when I need the assist on a hill or from a quick start the assist is there and the amount of the assist is also displayed. The net result is that I go for a ride with a battery 100 % charged and when I get home the battery is 100 % charged. But this will vary by many factors, mostly the amount of assist required and the riders desire to push just a little bit harder when the going is easy.


Serving the Vello motor is unique, I don't know of many bikes that can be diagnosed and adjusted online but the Vello can be. But if that can't solve a problem the complete electric assist components of the Vello can be shipped to a service center by removing and shipping the 406 rear wheel. The Vello has no wires and no connections other than the charging plug.


Cheers, Bill

snazpizaz

Hi Bill,

1. When i test rode the vello bike we couldn't get the app to connect to the motor (again a discouraging experience) - i had to rely on what the dealer told me - that he had set it to the most assisting level. I tried repeatedly to connect to the motor with the app on my ride but couldn't. I rode hills around Bloomsbury which are relatively few - Lloyd Baker Street, Pentonville Road and back down side streets to Roseberry Ave where there are also some steep descents. The results were as previously reported. I felt gears would tackle the hills far better. The motor was very good on flats but in some way it felt a bit like an unnecessary luxury because i can really achieve the same using gears.

The motor power issue isn't strictly Vello's fault. All EU certified cycle motors for road use have the same power restrictions and the banning of throttle twists also removes that capacity and limits to pedal assist. US and off-road cycle motors have higher power specs but are illegal on UK roads. (That said i saw quite a few off road mountain bikes with high powered - throttle assist motors on use on Lake District roads a couple of years ago. I'm afraid i'm not really a fan of the EU on-road cycle motor limitations though i fully appreciate the safety reasons. I preferred the old throttle type motors which were true assist and could get you up the hill without the need to pedal. I understand there are one or two motor models available which enable you to switch between EU compliant and higher power levels and i would favour this over the motor in the vello.

For others - each to his own - but i did come away concerned about what happens if the magnet closing mechanism failed and i also did feel a tiny wiggle in the roped-collapsible handlebar used - though that said i also really liked them so would have been likely to purchase them above the others just to own one.

The variants on self-charging were too pedantic for me - i don't want to keep referring to an app i can't connect to. I also have preferences for real physical controls over wifi control generally, particularly in UK weather and where my eye sight is middle-aged and squinting at a smartscreen is something i want less of in life.

I did alot of research into the vello motor technology and on first spec it seems like a real neat upgrade. But there were speculative issues about overheating on prolonged use which split the discourse - with some adamant one shouldn't ever put the battery close to the motor and others less militant. I imagine it works well for brief urban riding on/or with flat and low rise terrain. In my research journey i cam across other motor technology implementing the same wifi app which had disappointed me. I came across a couple of innovative alternatives too. I would favour for myself a motor which switches up to a higher powered level, with onboard controls and detachable battery pack. I also noted reports from Amsterdam of increases in cycle deaths in the 45-60 age group due to use of the motors i favour !!! But each to their own. BikeFriday adapted a brommie with an onboard configerable electric motor which most suited my needs - but i can no longer find that youtube vid.


sp

riverwave

I’ve now had a Brompton Electric for six months and I’m sold on it. Use it virtually everyday and it’s so versatile. Robust enough to carry luggage and for holidays (I have the rack and take a rucksack on the back plus the larger City bag on the front). I go into Asda shopping, on and off buses and trains so truly multi-modal; it’s even been in the cinema and restaurants with me sitting neatly in the next seat.
It has good torque and, with six gears, has got me up 20% hills efficiently with me cycling hard but seated. It can manage 25% hill with difficulty as the front tyre loses adhesion on loose gravel which they often have. When I took it to tour around Annecy I bought a second battery but didn’t really need it - I got up Mont Semnoz 1700m without using it. Around the UK there’s usually a roadside cafe or pub to do a quick partial recharge if needed (I have the 4 amp fast charger.)
The bike is robustly built. The battery in a bag connector works well - you just clunk it in place and you’re away. Everything about Bromptons (not just the Electric) impress as they’re so well designed and executed, from the neat 3 in 1 bell/gear change/brake lever, to the repair kit that sits out of sight inside the main tube, to the lightweight cover for Eurostar that protects the exposed pedal. Even the lights are great - they are bright enough to be useful and have a light sensor for auto use.
The only things I’d criticise are that, compared with the non-electric Brompton, the front luggage selection is limited, and when rolling folded it is less stable because of the offset weight of the motor.
In terms of the competition the crowdfunded Flit 16 looks interesting and more of a challenger to Brompton’s crown in the urban setting than the Vello in my view.

timorez

The flit is awesome and from Cambridge (my folks town) but isn’t off the manufacturing line yet,it’s not going to be too long for the early backers but if like vello preorders will take awhile longer. I nearly backed it but held off. I also quite liked carbo. If I’d have another brommie I’d get the Swytch kit on a non e version - way cheaper and you can use your rack up front. The small folded size of Brompton are their best point by far but why can’t they do as others do and provide cells in seat posts/frames or even a range of sizes etc. I hardly use my vello and have just backed the 12kg AMX mini which is close to a Dahon Dash (mini vello style) which looks way better than my current bikes for portability even tho it won’t fold like a dash. My ‘pedal’ bikes never get used now,the one that’s got the Swytch kit so gets out occasionally but I may sell a couple soon,Swytch’s new Brompton kit looks tiny next to the original (last years model) & other brommie owners who backed Swytch all love theirs. I backed the SU18 but it never hit its goals,I’m glad now looking at advancement of other bikes like the flit 16. I can’t wait to get the AMX as it’s easy to lift for an eBike (next to a mate at least)...
enjoy your brommie & good luck!

snazpizaz

Whats the power on those motors then ? Anything higher than the legal limit which the vello/brommie motors have shouldnt be ridden on UK roads. If you knock someone down and cause serious injury you could face a prison sentence. Also noting the rise in deaths caused by high spec ebikes in Amsterdam for the over 55s.
A way around this is to get a motor which switches between a legal limit and a designated higher powered off-road power. Do any of the ebikes/kits mentioned here do that ?

s

riverwave

Milano Folding Bikers have a very detailed review. It only appears on my laptop not on iPhone for some reason. It’s in Italian but that’s no problem if you have google translate!

riverwave

I keep trying to copy my translated across and each time Bike Forums says I can’t show a URL until I’ve published ten posts.... I deleted the URL and does the same blocking response. So here’s my eighth post, to be quickly by my ninth and tenth. Apologies guys, but it’ll be worth it I assure you!

riverwave

My ninth post: in their test MFB measured the Vello and found it to be significantly larger than in the Vello published figures. Maybe the addition of pedals to the bike?

riverwave

My tenth post.... almost there

riverwave

Well, it’s still not letting me. Sorry for the disappointment!

Bill Wilby

Will this help, Milano Folding Bikers: VELLO Bike+

tim24k

LOL! Looking on their web site there is only one dealer in North America.

Kabuto

Vello bike = unobtanium??? Has anyone purchased a Vello bike recently? My experience with them leads me to think their bicycles are just vapourware now.

I tried contacting Vello bike through their website several times but they never bothered to reply. I also contacted their Australian dealer, who emailed his contact at Vello bike for me. He never heard back from them either, and gave up on the dealership shortly afterward due to the incredibly poor communication from them. No response whatsoever. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Looking at their website now, he's unsurprisingly no longer listed.

timorez

I have one that I may sell las haven't really bothered since I went electric but as folders go it’s the nuts. It is quite a lot bigger than a Brompton but still a lot smaller than other 20” folders. In the U.K we have one dealer and then I think it’s their home town in Austria that does the rest of the EU. It’s a husband and wife team with a few staff so small scale but it’s strange they haven’t replied to a potential customer! Good luck in hunting one down,if you can afford the Ti frame get that,it’ll last a lifetime...

tomtomtom123

I wonder if it has mounting points for rear rack. Some of the photos seem to show threaded holes while others do not. Somewhere I read that they're designing a folding rack but I don't see anything on the website. I see a video of a folding rear fender but those mounting points are a bit strangely positioned to be used for a rack. The folding fender seems to have the fold overlapping the wrong side, which will shoot dirty water at your legs.

I'm curious if it has 135mm dropouts for dual drive.

Jipe

I think so: during the Indiegogo campaign there was a non-electric version with an Alfine 11 internal gear hub which is a 135mm
wide hub.

timorez

The folding fenders are really neat although I have a plume on the back and a modded Ahooga for the front so both curl up when dry,I was going to get the vello fenders but getting them was a wait & the two above can be used on my other bikes. The bosses are constantly changing,mine has the front carrier braze on (head tube) like most tern or Dahon bikes. I think the rear rack (when it comes) will be fitted to the same bosses that the fenders come off. Having no rear rack will definitely put some off,even types that can be mounted off the seat post will only work if you leave it unfolded- to get the fold locked in you must push the seat post right down so the end holds it in place,having a rack blocks that from happening. I think their rack will be much like their fenders and will drop in the same way. I have found I can carry a lot more than I thought on the front but I still miss having a heavy load rack at the back sometimes. I’ve actually got another seat post with R&K’s seat post adapter and a vario rack which can hold a few kilos extra. It all add weight tho and it’s not the lightest bike. It’s quirky and built well but definitely won’t suit those who like to carry loads. Xootr have the cross rack which lets you mount a single pannier to the back but again it messes with the fold. If I do sell my vello it will be with a front only adapter for a basket or rack and let the buyer work out how to carry more. Thought that vello would grow quicker than it has & dealers with spares would be more widely available. I’ll post back when I finally do sell mine but it won’t be until times are pretty bad. I still have the box & it’s mint condition with loads of extras. I’ve got the Claris 11 geared urbano not the Alfine model & the drop outs are 135mm on that,I think all models all the same but they may differ with newer or older models like the bosses,I haven’t the neat little V logo cut into the earlier models near the rear drop outs. If you love a quirky bike that rides like a big bike it’s excellent. If it was lighter it would be as much fun as my cannondale hooligan which won’t fold but can carry like a pack mule and is really nimble on its 20” wheels. Dahon’s Dash is another contender for those who want to carry and fold. Slowly we’re seeing more mini vello bikes in the West,I backed the AMX so that’s my next bike. Good luck with your bike hunting

henrry

I have not, but hope in the future will own one.

henrry

Maybe soon, I'll buy one

jondron

I just bought my Bike+ from Bill (see his useful replies earlier in this thread).

The bike is lovely - understated simplicity and elegance, no heavier than my Brompton pushbike, rides really smoothly, highly manoeuvrable, and I really can arrive home with more power in the battery than when I left when it is set to its most economical Bike+ mode. You just get a slight nudge up hills and at slow speeds when starting in this mode, but you can't get back what you don't put in, so pedalling at more than 10kph is a bit harder, and the effort is repaid with interest deducted due to inevitable losses in the conversion and storage of the energy. If you intended to use Bike+ mode all the time, you'd be much better off getting a traditional bike with good gears. It's a mode to use when the battery is very low, or when you really want a workout, not all the time. It depends on many things, but I reckon the average charge rate seems to be about 2% per kilometre pedalled, but your mileage will certainly vary. For day-to-day use, it has two 'normal' ebike modes, which assist either up to the full 25kph (turbo mode) or 20kph (ebike mode), and give a range of very roughly 30km or 50km respectively, depending greatly on conditions (the claimed 50km and 80km for these modes is optimistic - if you are very small and light, cycling with minimal clothing on a flat and even surface with no wind, it might be true). The ebike modes work well and very smoothly, responding to torque and to braking/back-pedalling almost imperceptibly. Between those and full Bike+ mode are three hybrid modes that give a push on hills and some pedalling assistance up to 15-20kph (depending on mode) on the flat, but that put (most of) the energy you add after that back into the battery. The going is slower and harder but the range is extended significantly, to well over 70km at the most-assisted setting, and presumably much more at the least-assisted setting (which I've not tried for long - too slow, too much effort). I like the fact that back-pedalling *normally* slows you down a bit (and adds charge, no matter what the mode), though I wish it still did so after it hits 25kph, after which, in any mode, it becomes a totally manual pushbike in all respects with no regenerative charging. The back-pedal gentle braking, though, makes it really responsive and controllable at less than 25kph once you've got the hang of it. Even in turbo mode, it is is still a bit of a struggle to get up a steep (>10%) hill, at least compared with my previous 350w ebike (a Voltbike Urban) but much easier than an unassisted pushbike, and one reason I wanted this was to increase the amount of exercise I do. The 25kph hard speed limit on motor assistance is fine, though it would be nicer if it went up to 32kph with assistance like most North American ebikes. Once you are up to 25km you have plenty of momentum to make it go faster, and it pedals easily, but the gearing is not conducive to pedalling at much more than 30kph, and at 35kph your legs are a slightly ridiculous blur. There's no throttle, of course: no controls of any kind, apart from via the phone, no integrated lights (not counting a couple of virtually useless button-cell-powered safety lights built into the seat and handlebar mounts), no USB charging: but that's OK. It's part of that elegant simplicity that I like about it. The folding is ingenious and pretty good compared with the norm, but not as well thought through as the Brompton, especially if you have the folding mudguards (they bend as much as fold, and they scrape the ground when the bike is partially folded, unlike those of the Brompton). It is easy to carry when folded, and can even be wheeled along easily by holding the saddle. If I had more money and it were easier to get hold of one, I think I would have chosen a Schlumpf drive. This gives you another gear, embedded in the hub and activated by kicking with your heel, either to push you faster when pedalling (the speed drive) or more easily up hills (the mountain drive) but not both. I'm not sure which I'd choose: both would be handy. The activation problem on hills attracts me to the mountain drive, but the ability to more comfortably pedal faster makes me prefer the speed drive. I wish there were an easy way to get something between the two (it is possible, because you can change the rear sprocket wheel but that's more hassle than I need, and involves a visit to Zehus online support to update the firmware to match). The Schlumpf drive can be retrofitted because all the hardware is there to support it, but it's expensive and not something I'd feel competent to fit myself. Most parts have standard fittings. It is particularly pleasing that the front carrier attachment takes the brackets used by Tern and Dahon.

There are two really serious flaws, however, the second of which will be a showstopper unless Zehus can get their act together soon:

1. starting on steep hills. The motor is only activated (switched on) once you hit at least 8kph and back-pedal three times. Once activated the bike then responds as you'd expect, giving a gentle and very smooth push after a second or two of pedalling from standstill. It deactivates itself after a couple of minutes of inactivity though so, if you stop to check your phone or drop into a store, you will have to do the activation dance over again. Mostly this is a minor inconvenience, a little ritual that quickly becomes second nature but, if you need to start up a steep hill, it's virtually impossible: you have to go down before you can go up.
2. the software. The software is really, really weak, both in the phone apps (especially Android) and (less obviously) probably the firmware of the bike itself. You cannot change any settings (like power assistance) or even look at your speed without first connecting to Zehus's cloud servers. If the servers are down or you have no Internet connection, you are out of luck. It can easily take 30 seconds for the login process to finish at the best of times. Without the Internet, the app claims to have successfully connected to the bike, but it just hangs there, waiting for the OK from Zehus Central that never comes. This is not just extremely inconvenient: it makes the bike's useful lifespan completely dependent on the Zehus's survival and their active willingness to maintain it, and it is very clearly not a software company and doesn't seem to have thought enough about this aspect of the machine, so I greatly fear its imminent demise. The app itself is buggy, extremely unreliable, has a very poor, unintuitive, and (on Android) non-standard interface, can be incredibly slow to connect, freezes, randomly disconnects, and uses up a lot of phone power. Sometimes, an app crash can affect the ride itself, which is not cool. I doubt that this was produced by a professional app developer: there are just too many rookie mistakes. The firmware also seems unreliable. In less than a week the bike has rebooted itself twice, while out riding, forcing me to stop riding and demanding re-entry of the PIN (which requires an Internet connection) before it would respond to anything. I have a bike that crashes! This makes it a complete lottery whether you will be able to change the mode while out riding, so I try to avoid doing so if at all possible and, if I must, normally wait until I've stopped somewhere before attempting it. The one marginal benefit is that - in theory - it should make it slightly less attractive to steal, because it will be stuck in one mode and might be traceable if someone tried to use the app to get in. I doubt that many thieves would know that though, so it's not a big deterrent. Zehus alerts you to bad PIN attempts and presumably would store the GPS coordinates or at least the IP of the phone used to attempt it. However, if I were a thief that knew enough to do this, I would switch off the GPS and access the site via a VPN, so it's not a great level of protection.

I am campaigning for Zehus to a) at least stop this crazy dependence on a persistent Internet connection (there should at least be a user-selectable offline mode for those of us who want the choice) and b) if possible, to open-source their app or, minimally, to open up the motor's API a little. Assuming (perhaps optimistically) that the motor has a sensible API that doesn't allow unauthorized apps to affect settings that would be dangerous or illegal, and that the PIN authentication mechanism does not actually need to access a remote server (if it does, this is entirely app-based, so should be fixable), this should not expose it to any risks. It would not take a competent programmer long to fix the obvious flaws, it would open up the potential to use other devices (e.g. smart watches, or even a little Arduino dedicated controller) to control it, at least when out and about, and it would reduce the enormous burden on Zehus to continue to pour money into supporting a motor that they have already sold, that will not provide them with any more revenue, and that will only get more costly to maintain as the years roll by. Open sourcing it might also increase their sales because the software would improve and they would not get so many negative reviews like this one. Their Internet-connected app is needed sometimes, mainly because (when the motor crashes) they can, they claim, normally fix it remotely, but that's a special mode that cannot (and should not) be used in the app without Zehus initiating it, so can be left out of the equation. Even if Zehus were reluctant to release the source code or full API, if developers were simply allowed to use (but not set) the PIN, and to provide up/down controls and perhaps access the ride data while offline (no reason at all why not), it would make a huge difference.

One final flaw, for me in Vancouver, is that there are no dealers for it here and, though the rest of the bike is sturdy, well made, and standards-compliant, batteries don't last forever. At some point in the next few years, the battery will no longer work, and it is not possible (at least according to the documentation) for end users to replace it. Given my fears about the likely longevity of Zehus (or at least its ability to support this motor) I'm not sure things would be much better even if you were based in Vienna.

I bought this with eyes wide open and I don't regret it. Most of the time it is a wonderful bike, one that I will probably grow to love, but caveat emptor. It certainly isn't for everyone.