Torque sensing pedal assist
06-04-20, 08:01 AM
#26
Senior Member
OMB Barrett - finally coming over to the dark side?
You're looking for a "torque sensing" rather than cadence sensing system. Are you looking to build a bike, or are you looking for something off the shelf.
Personally I just use a throttle because I like the precision of them (and I run low power). Since you are an acomplished biker, you might be happy with a low power assist for hills where it is basically an on/off system. The trick with ebikes is that they get heavy quickly - which has to be ballanced out with the hill climbing advantages...
You're looking for a "torque sensing" rather than cadence sensing system. Are you looking to build a bike, or are you looking for something off the shelf.
Personally I just use a throttle because I like the precision of them (and I run low power). Since you are an acomplished biker, you might be happy with a low power assist for hills where it is basically an on/off system. The trick with ebikes is that they get heavy quickly - which has to be ballanced out with the hill climbing advantages...
I am looking into the gear needed to build an ebike and have been planning on using the tsdz2 so far.
06-04-20, 08:05 AM
#27
Senior Member
David Hall of Eco Cycles was great to deal with. He answered all of my pre-purchase questions in impressive detail, and went above and beyond to resolve some issues with my order. Working with Eco Cycles was one of the best vendor experiences that I've had in a long time.
06-04-20, 08:11 AM
#28
Senior Member
For anyone interested in this subject, Ron (aka spinning magnets) has written an execlent in depth article on the TSDZ2
I would highly recommend it if you want to do in depth.
TSDZ2, mini 750W mid-drive with torque sensing:
https://www.electricbike.com/tsdz2-7...orque-sensing/
The Bafang units have been around the longest, but this unit is close on its heals. Anything newer I would be a little wary of. Bafang gets a lot of the attention because it is big and potentially powerful (i.e. there isn't much point in pedaling at some of those power levels). But this unit looks great for people who actually want to pedal, and want the bike to feel like a bicycle rather than a moped.
I love a lightweight build that rides like a bicycle. Been riding my 25lb 25mph ebike for the better part of a decade now.
I would highly recommend it if you want to do in depth.
TSDZ2, mini 750W mid-drive with torque sensing:
https://www.electricbike.com/tsdz2-7...orque-sensing/
The Bafang units have been around the longest, but this unit is close on its heals. Anything newer I would be a little wary of. Bafang gets a lot of the attention because it is big and potentially powerful (i.e. there isn't much point in pedaling at some of those power levels). But this unit looks great for people who actually want to pedal, and want the bike to feel like a bicycle rather than a moped.
I love a lightweight build that rides like a bicycle. Been riding my 25lb 25mph ebike for the better part of a decade now.
Also, can you give details on your 25/25/25 ebike? Have a picture?
06-04-20, 08:14 AM
#29
Senior Member
We recently purchased a pair of 2019 Giant Lafree city bikes with mid drive Yamaha motors. They are a combo of up to six sensors in full auto mode. The five programmable levels are based in percent of your effort and can add up to 300%. It measures speed toque cadence slope and other factors to give a very realistic feel. I'm enjoying the bike a lot! On longer trips, I ride 50 to150 assist and can get about 100km (62miles) on a charge. Mid drive works great because we get to use the 8speed derailleur to its full extent. Based on riding mine another friend just bought a Giant Explore at $2700 CAD. The 250 W motor has all the power you would want and uses power sparingly. For health reasons my wife had mostly stopped riding with the group. She's back and enjoying it. Could not be happier with the riding experience. We tried some no-name specials and were disappointed. The Giant does not have a throttle.
06-04-20, 09:56 AM
#30
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We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
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06-04-20, 10:04 AM
#31
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"Q" factor is the distance between the crankarms; I don't know about the TS, but with BBS02 the difference between the left arm and its chainstay and the right and its chainstay differs by 10 - 15 mm (haven't measured in awhile so forget the exact amount). This can be rectified with Lekkie crankarms which eliminate the disparity.
06-04-20, 10:54 AM
#32
Senior Member
Along Lake Erie where we live there is a mix of flat and rolling hills. Speed also plays a factor and these bikes are most efficient around 24km/h (15mph ) My wife is in her seventies and had some health problems recently. These bikes make it fun and easy for her to still enjoy a good ride.
06-04-20, 10:55 AM
#33
Senior Member
"Q" factor is the distance between the crankarms; I don't know about the TS, but with BBS02 the difference between the left arm and its chainstay and the right and its chainstay differs by 10 - 15 mm (haven't measured in awhile so forget the exact amount). This can be rectified with Lekkie crankarms which eliminate the disparity.
06-04-20, 11:02 AM
#34
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Some individuals claim it caused a problem with their "pedaling mechanics", but didn't bother me. However, I'm OCD about symmetry, so procured the Lekkies.
06-04-20, 03:44 PM
#35
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For the road bike, I basically just use it at full throttle to get that extra top end (since there is no adjustable throttle for a drop bar). With my flat bar mountain bikes, I can adjust the power - but these motors are kinda small to run at part throttle. Keep in mind that for anything except the smallest motors - if you are using full throttle, the peddling is just for show - it doesn't really add much to the speed or range (unless you are using PAS or part throttle). A 500-1000 watt motor is going to be a LOT stronger than you are, and adding 100 watts by pedaling isn't gonna make too much difference at that power level.
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...road-bike.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...ums-first.html
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...hp?f=3&t=49691
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06-04-20, 09:38 PM
#36
Senior Member
I used a small hub motor and a 4lb battery - so it feels like a bike and is great even without power. The motors are kinda small to do anything much on their own, but as they double the output from my legs, it makes a nice hybrid. Given that I can do about 20mph on my own, with the motor I do about 25mph. Fast commuter.
For the road bike, I basically just use it at full throttle to get that extra top end (since there is no adjustable throttle for a drop bar). With my flat bar mountain bikes, I can adjust the power - but these motors are kinda small to run at part throttle. Keep in mind that for anything except the smallest motors - if you are using full throttle, the peddling is just for show - it doesn't really add much to the speed or range (unless you are using PAS or part throttle). A 500-1000 watt motor is going to be a LOT stronger than you are, and adding 100 watts by pedaling isn't gonna make too much difference at that power level.
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...road-bike.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...ums-first.html
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...hp?f=3&t=49691
For the road bike, I basically just use it at full throttle to get that extra top end (since there is no adjustable throttle for a drop bar). With my flat bar mountain bikes, I can adjust the power - but these motors are kinda small to run at part throttle. Keep in mind that for anything except the smallest motors - if you are using full throttle, the peddling is just for show - it doesn't really add much to the speed or range (unless you are using PAS or part throttle). A 500-1000 watt motor is going to be a LOT stronger than you are, and adding 100 watts by pedaling isn't gonna make too much difference at that power level.
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...road-bike.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...ums-first.html
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...hp?f=3&t=49691
06-05-20, 01:04 AM
#37
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I found that torque-sensing to me provides more of an incentive to put the effort in myself. I add more, and the motor adds more. Feels so natural.
With a cadence system, I’m far more likely to simply plod along. No extra payoff from extra effort.
For a more utility-minded ride, no big deal. But for me, if I want to keep the variation of effort of an unassisted ride, I get closer to that with a torque sensing system.
With a cadence system, I’m far more likely to simply plod along. No extra payoff from extra effort.
For a more utility-minded ride, no big deal. But for me, if I want to keep the variation of effort of an unassisted ride, I get closer to that with a torque sensing system.
06-05-20, 02:32 PM
#38
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Had to modify the motor a little to get it to work with a single speed - its a little easier with a 7 or 8 speed cassette on a hub motor.
But if I didn't want a light bike for a flat commute, that torque sensing tsdz2 looks like the way to go. They had a few teething issues when it was first released, but its fairly mature now. Its going to be a little smaller than a Bafang BBS02.
06-05-20, 07:33 PM
#39
Senior Member
Yeah, making a road bike is hard. You can't really do an adjustable throttle, and the dropouts tend to be really small. At least with a single speed, there is a beefy dropout - and I don't need to shift with a motor anyway.
Had to modify the motor a little to get it to work with a single speed - its a little easier with a 7 or 8 speed cassette on a hub motor.
But if I didn't want a light bike for a flat commute, that torque sensing tsdz2 looks like the way to go. They had a few teething issues when it was first released, but its fairly mature now. Its going to be a little smaller than a Bafang BBS02.
Had to modify the motor a little to get it to work with a single speed - its a little easier with a 7 or 8 speed cassette on a hub motor.
But if I didn't want a light bike for a flat commute, that torque sensing tsdz2 looks like the way to go. They had a few teething issues when it was first released, but its fairly mature now. Its going to be a little smaller than a Bafang BBS02.
09-11-20, 09:40 AM
#40
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09-11-20, 11:40 AM
#41
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Nice videos. I do believe the rear sensor is necessary, but only because of an experience my wife had: She was getting no power at all from the motor. A quick look showed that the sensor magnet had moved a bit. When I pushed it back to the right position, the motor acted normally. Perhaps if it's disconnected, the controller goes into some sort of fall-back mode. I'm sure you'll have fun, like I did, routing all of the wires cleanly.
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07-29-21, 08:25 AM
#42
Full Member
The TSDZ2 is nice. I am still working out some kinks. Is the sensor on the rear wheel required? I disconnected mine and gave a quick ride and it seemed fine. I had an issue with my display and system turning off during my ride. Hoping by disconnecting the sensor that issue will go away.
https://youtu.be/kABZTr-hlEs
https://youtu.be/eNP450qGIL0
https://youtu.be/kABZTr-hlEs
https://youtu.be/eNP450qGIL0
