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Cycling and Fat loss

Old 07-23-19, 03:51 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
At lunch today, in an hour, I burned 900kj. Since I've worked long enough at bike training, that was mostly fat burn.
900kJ in an hour is a serious amount of work done. And for it to be fat burn, it would have to fall into a Z1/Z2 area for power... meaning that your Z1 power needs to be like 260W, putting FTP like... north of 400?

I've done ~1,000kJ an hour a couple of times. FTP tests. In Z1/Z2 I can expect ~600kJ/hr.
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Old 07-23-19, 06:31 PM
  #152  
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And here I was feeling good I did 865kJ in one hour yesterday going really hard (89% of 269W FTP. Was shooting for an even 90%). But I'm 45 and I've only been going hard on the bike for 2.5 months (as opposed to kinda sorta hard before) so I'll pretend that's a good number.

Assuming the calorie conversion from my power output is reasonably correct, I've burned 35,500 calories biking in the last 2.5 months, or a touch over 10 pounds. I've also lost 10 pounds. Which I guess means near 100% of my weight loss is from exercise and little from changing my terrible diet. (A little is from lowered consumption as I'd gain about 1/3-1/2 pound a month if I had minimal exercise so that's about 40-60 calories a day).

I keep getting told that such a thing just isn't possible.
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Old 07-23-19, 08:31 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Keto works for weight loss in some cases, but greatly increases your risk of cardovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and increases inflammation. Turns your body's ph balance more acidic - very bad for long term health. Want to live longer and be healthier? check out nutritionfacts dot org

do you want to look good on the outside and be a medical mess on the inside?
This post is every bit as bad as the "Keto is the only way" posts. Your body's pH balance doesn't change. If it did, you would die very quickly.

Whether Keto "increases your risk of cardovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and increases inflammation" isn't really known. There aren't any long term studies done on it because, in general, few people stick with it for very long. Any diet that goes to extremes is questionable of course, but in general, weight loss, even if from odd diets, causes an improvement in most health markers.

The website you listed is not a reputable one.
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Old 07-24-19, 12:47 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Too many people "dabble" in things for fitness. You have to get consistent enough at something so you can get strong enough at it that you can burn more in a given time period.

At lunch today, in an hour, I burned 900kj. Since I've worked long enough at bike training, that was mostly fat burn. Got off the bike and was completely satiated by a salad with grilled chicken and bit of croutons. Didn't even feel super hungry.

People who dabble and do stupid "50 pounds on the leg curl machine while checking Facebook" at the gym won't burn ****.

Fitness involves at least a mild bit of discomfort.

I don't think people realize how few calories they burn in 30min or in an hour for some of their "workouts" and "walks" and such.

Eating, yeah. It's obvious you just consumed a carton of ice cream with 2500 calories. It says so. But people without a fancy fitness tracker like a meter or HRM might think they're doing a LOT more than they are.

I still advocate for fitness hobbies, so you can progress to a point that you're really burning some energy.
What a load of horse crap! I work out a lot, and it is a major component in weight control for me, but to suggest to someone they shouldn't do a 30 minute workout a day because it is just "dabbling"? That's dumb. They may not be able to lose significant weight that way, but they will likely be a lot healthier than if they didn't do it.

And I hate to break it to you, but your fancy trackers are just giving you false precision when it comes to calorie burn. It's all estimates based on assumptions. So now you are advocating an added expense and inconvenience as somehow being a necessity for effective working out, which is just going to discourage people from doing the 30 minute workout.

BTW, I do just fine without the trackers and hrm. I'm just guessing on the calorie burn and the fat burn instead of a having a machine guess for me.
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Old 07-24-19, 06:18 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
900kJ in an hour is a serious amount of work done. And for it to be fat burn, it would have to fall into a Z1/Z2 area for power... meaning that your Z1 power needs to be like 260W, putting FTP like... north of 400?

I've done ~1,000kJ an hour a couple of times. FTP tests. In Z1/Z2 I can expect ~600kJ/hr.
You're correct, it's not 100% fat burn. It's a percent contribution to the energy burn though. The more aerobic the effort, the more likely the fat burn contribution will be higher. Like you say, an ftp test or something like "all out" intervals will burn more glycogen/carb as a percentage.

It was upper zone 3. That's still going to be aerobic and a power you can hold for a long time. Being pretty much all aerobic, the fat contribution should be pretty good. I have no idea what % it is, but it's got to be a higher % fat contribution than doing 3x3min sets all-out.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What a load of horse crap! I work out a lot, and it is a major component in weight control for me, but to suggest to someone they shouldn't do a 30 minute workout a day because it is just "dabbling"? That's dumb. They may not be able to lose significant weight that way, but they will likely be a lot healthier than if they didn't do it.

And I hate to break it to you, but your fancy trackers are just giving you false precision when it comes to calorie burn. It's all estimates based on assumptions. So now you are advocating an added expense and inconvenience as somehow being a necessity for effective working out, which is just going to discourage people from doing the 30 minute workout.

BTW, I do just fine without the trackers and hrm. I'm just guessing on the calorie burn and the fat burn instead of a having a machine guess for me.
I never said someone should stop working out. They should just be sure they understand what the work will actually contribute to their health.

It's not dabbling because it's 30 minutes, nor is it dabbling if you don't own fancy devices. It's dabbling if a person spends more time on Facebook in the gym or during their workout than actually sweating.

Everyone has to start somewhere. And 30min might be it. But, the 30min should in some way provide a path towards "progress". If today you walked a mile, then in a few months move it up to 1.5mi. Then move it up to a 2mi trot. Then eventually move it up to a 30min jog. No tracker required. Own a phone or watch? Time it. Areas have signs and trees and landmarks. Use those if not using GPS.

If it's weights, time yourself on a little circuit once in a while. If the circuit used to take you 45min, work on getting the circuit down to 40min. Then 35. Then once at 30min either add some weight in OR increase the time back to 45min.

If it's a bike, ride the greenway for 30min and make it a few miles. Then, make it a a couple more. Then do it a little faster.

My point is that lots of people have a divergence between what they think they will accomplish with their efforts, versus what those efforts will actually accomplish. It's a lot more helpful for someone to work up to being able to burn 200 in 30min than only ever burning 100. It doesn't have to be 1000 or something crazy.

Also, fwiw, I don't use estimated calorie burns. I log KJ, which is the physical measurement of work. It's not a guess, it just is what it is. A simple cheap bathroom scale and how much room one has in their pants is often plenty of feedback over a period of time to see if the food in and effort out are in a decent balance. It's a bit of a slow control loop to wait on pants to not fit, but it's a pretty obvious clue if one can't button them.

When I started riding the bike 3 years back, it was partly because the pants didn't fit. The wife noticed me wearing pants with the button not buttoned and using the belt to hold them up. She said "new pants, or lose it so they fit". So, I lost it.
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Old 07-24-19, 06:30 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post


I never said someone should stop working out. They should just be sure they understand what the work will actually contribute to their health.

.
Many people do not have a deep understanding of the particulars. And I don't think that is necessary. If they walk daily or bicycle daily or work out a bit at home or gym, that's a good thing. They do not have to be experts or even know what a calorie is in order to derive benefits from exercise.
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Old 07-24-19, 06:40 AM
  #157  
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It's not that complicated. If you burn up more calories than you take in, fat will be used as fuel and the person's weight is reduced.

Naturally, the body fights potential fat loss with a million and one brilliant strategies (some of them physiological, and others psychological) but at the end of the day, the human body is not a perpetual motion machine, and the weight will eventually come off. Maybe not a quickly as we'd like it to, but there is only one possible outcome when more energy is burned than is taken in, i.e., weight loss.
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Old 07-24-19, 07:03 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

Everyone has to start somewhere. And 30min might be it. But, the 30min should in some way provide a path towards "progress". If today you walked a mile, then in a few months move it up to 1.5mi. Then move it up to a 2mi trot. Then eventually move it up to a 30min jog. No tracker required. Own a phone or watch? Time it. Areas have signs and trees and landmarks. Use those if not using GPS...

Also, fwiw, I don't use estimated calorie burns. I log KJ, which is the physical measurement of work. It's not a guess, it just is what it is.
I'm not bothering with the rest of the diatribe, but this is where you shade right into the nonsense zone.

People can have very different goals from that--they might just be trying to maintain, for example. You have to know a lot more about the individual and their resources/needs before you could make such a statement. You also don't know what else they might be doing with their calorie intake, or doing simple things like taking the stairs instead of the elevator. I avoid telling people what they "should" be doing (and my results have been good enough that I get asked a lot) even when I know their particulars, and keep it to "these things have worked for me" or "I know somebody this has worked for", and then they can decide if they want to try it.

Your energy output can be measured, the number of calories burned to produce that output is always an estimate except in laboratory conditions that would be utterly impractical on a regular basis.
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Old 07-24-19, 07:09 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
It's not that complicated. If you burn up more calories than you take in, fat will be used as fuel and the person's weight is reduced.

Naturally, the body fights potential fat loss with a million and one brilliant strategies (some of them physiological, and others psychological) but at the end of the day, the human body is not a perpetual motion machine, and the weight will eventually come off. Maybe not a quickly as we'd like it to, but there is only one possible outcome when more energy is burned than is taken in, i.e., weight loss.
The problem with CICO being stated as a simple strategy is that our data on calories both in and out are really quite poor. Calories out tends to shift down at the same level of activity as you lose weight, so there's a constant need to make adjustments to continue to lose weight.

It can be stated simply, but the devil is in the details.
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Old 07-24-19, 08:19 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not bothering with the rest of the diatribe, but this is where you shade right into the nonsense zone.

People can have very different goals from that--they might just be trying to maintain, for example. You have to know a lot more about the individual and their resources/needs before you could make such a statement. You also don't know what else they might be doing with their calorie intake, or doing simple things like taking the stairs instead of the elevator. I avoid telling people what they "should" be doing (and my results have been good enough that I get asked a lot) even when I know their particulars, and keep it to "these things have worked for me" or "I know somebody this has worked for", and then they can decide if they want to try it.

Your energy output can be measured, the number of calories burned to produce that output is always an estimate except in laboratory conditions that would be utterly impractical on a regular basis.
You're not really the target audience of my comments at all.

The target audience would be people who are having difficulties despite feeling they are "doing something".

It's not my song and dance. It's in any number of health guidelines from numerous organizations and countries. "Moderate physical activity" is quite a bit more than some people actually do. I completely understand some people can't fulfill that due to conditions. But those that could have to calibrate the "in and out" other people above talk about.

It's not good to think one can eat a 1500 calorie meal twice per day because they did something active for 30min. The balance of that activity has to work out.

It's very very clear to me that this isn't happening in vast swaths of the US and other countries as obesity and diabetes races around the globe. And part of the problem is a mis-calibration in thinking we're doing more than we actually are.

Also, don't come in to the KJ/meter argument without understanding the background. So yeah, 1KJ actually is a really good measure to 1 cal.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/h...lorie-reading/
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Old 07-24-19, 09:18 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
You're not really the target audience of my comments at all.

The target audience would be people who are having difficulties despite feeling they are "doing something".

It's not my song and dance. It's in any number of health guidelines from numerous organizations and countries. "Moderate physical activity" is quite a bit more than some people actually do. I completely understand some people can't fulfill that due to conditions. But those that could have to calibrate the "in and out" other people above talk about.

It's not good to think one can eat a 1500 calorie meal twice per day because they did something active for 30min. The balance of that activity has to work out.

It's very very clear to me that this isn't happening in vast swaths of the US and other countries as obesity and diabetes races around the globe. And part of the problem is a mis-calibration in thinking we're doing more than we actually are.

Also, don't come in to the KJ/meter argument without understanding the background. So yeah, 1KJ actually is a really good measure to 1 cal.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/h...lorie-reading/
Another time somebody posts a sales pitch as a link proving something.

Not that simple--the conversion is still an estimate: MetaCycling: Using a power-meter to estimate energy expenditure. Are you getting the right information?

As you so aptly point out, there is an obesity problem going on that no one seems to have any real handle on, so posting a variation on the "same song and dance" that's obviously not working really well despite the probably billions of dollars that have been spent on promoting it over the past few decades doesn't seem like a really important task.

I know I'm not the "target audience". I'm criticizing you for telling them they should do "X" when that message is also implying (actually stating in your case) "doing Y won't accomplish much".

As for calibrating, that's so individualized based on metabolic rates, genetics, and a hole host of x factors that are really poorly understood at this point that the likelihood is that anyone's advice to anyone else is pretty much useless.

I'll leave you to play guru some more, but that which you say is true is obvious (ice cream has a lot of calories, who knew?), and that which you say that isn't obvious isn't true.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:30 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The problem with CICO being stated as a simple strategy is that our data on calories both in and out are really quite poor. Calories out tends to shift down at the same level of activity as you lose weight, so there's a constant need to make adjustments to continue to lose weight.

It can be stated simply, but the devil is in the details.
If you use something like myfitnesspal they take care of reducing your basal metabolic rate as your weight goes down. Those effects are very small and not the reason people gain or fail to lose weight.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:41 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
If you use something like myfitnesspal they take care of reducing your basal metabolic rate as your weight goes down. Those effects are very small and not the reason people gain or fail to lose weight.
I've lost 140 pounds and kept it off--like hell those effects are very small. I constantly had to adjust food down or activity level up to maintain weight loss, and that gets harder as you go along, not easier.
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Old 07-24-19, 10:43 AM
  #164  
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Trainingpeaks sells training plans and tracking software. Part of that is logging your workouts and maybe tracking weight if you have a smart scale or bother to enter it.

It doesn't sell power meters. And it doesn't cost any different if you do or don't utilize power meter data. There'd be something to that if they wanted to charge different for people with meters or those without.

If you want to try to win on semantics, take the W. But a meter on a bike giving KJ is about good as you're going to get. Totally unnecessary for most, but it does work.

Almost everything you use is an indirect measurement or indication. It doesn't have to be perfect, just repeatable.

Unless you've got a tube of mercury on your window sill measuring the atmospheric pressure.........as that's pretty darn direct. mm of hg.
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Old 07-24-19, 12:12 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
This post is every bit as bad as the "Keto is the only way" posts. Your body's pH balance doesn't change. If it did, you would die very quickly.

Whether Keto "increases your risk of cardovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and increases inflammation" isn't really known. There aren't any long term studies done on it because, in general, few people stick with it for very long. Any diet that goes to extremes is questionable of course, but in general, weight loss, even if from odd diets, causes an improvement in most health markers.

The website you listed is not a reputable one.
"every bit as bad" - thats quite an exaggeration, as a plant based diet is helpful not harmful to human life, whereas keto is.

Yes the body's PH balance does change, and a more acidic balance causes problems such as gout.

Nutritionfacts is a biased website - biased towards what the most reputable studies on human nutrition show.
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Old 07-24-19, 12:20 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
"every bit as bad" - thats quite an exaggeration, as a plant based diet is helpful not harmful to human life, whereas keto is.

Yes the body's PH balance does change, and a more acidic balance causes problems such as gout.

Nutritionfacts is a biased website - biased towards what the most reputable studies on human nutrition show.
LOL no. I wasn't exaggerating at all. You're just as obsessed with your nutritional dogma as the Keto fanboys are, and you sound just as silly.
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Old 07-24-19, 02:18 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
LOL no. I wasn't exaggerating at all. You're just as obsessed with your nutritional dogma as the Keto fanboys are, and you sound just as silly.
I think anyone with common sense would agree that advocating a healthy diet vs non healthy is not a bad thing.

I retract my statement about you exaggerating, you were just plain wrong. Yes preventing strokes, reversing heart disease, diabetes by following a healthy diet is soooo silly./s
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Old 07-24-19, 07:00 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
I think anyone with common sense would agree that advocating a healthy diet vs non healthy is not a bad thing.

I retract my statement about you exaggerating, you were just plain wrong. Yes preventing strokes, reversing heart disease, diabetes by following a healthy diet is soooo silly./s
Plain wrong? Well let's see.

Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Keto works for weight loss in some cases,
True.

Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
but greatly increases your risk of cardovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and increases inflammation.
Unknown as there are no studies done to this effect. Please don't pretend something is a fact when it hasn't been proven. That's dishonest.
Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Turns your body's ph balance more acidic - very bad for long term health.
Completely false. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...th#bottom-line

Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Want to live longer and be healthier? check out nutritionfacts dot org
Still a quack site that doesn't even pretend to be unbiased.

So... nope, not wrong at all.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:02 PM
  #169  
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Completely true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14673606

The effect of a vegetarian and different omnivorous diets on urinary risk factors for uric acid stone formation.
Abstract

BACKGROUND:

About 10-15% of all urinary stones are composed of uric acid. A high urinary uric acid excretion, a low urine volume and an acidic urinary pH value are suggested to be the most important risk factors for uric acid stone formation.
AIM OF THE STUDY:

The effect of a vegetarian diet and different omnivorous diets on the risk of uric acid crystallization was investigated.
METHODS:

Ten healthy male subjects ingested a self-selected meat-containing diet (SD) for two weeks, and three different standardized diets for a period of 5 days each. The Westerntype diet (WD) was representative of the usual dietary habits,whereas the balanced omnivorous diet (OD) and the ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet (VD) were calculated according to the requirements.
RESULTS:

The risk of uric acid crystallization was highest on the ingestion of diets SD and WD, due to the high urinary uric acid excretion and the acidic urinary pH. The relative supersaturation with uric acid declined significantly by 85% on the intake of diet OD, consequent to the decrease in uric acid excretion and concentration and the increase in urinary pH value. The ingestion of the vegetarian diet VD led to a further significant reduction in the risk of uric acid crystallization by 93% compared to diet WD.
CONCLUSIONS:

The results indicate that the intake of a balanced vegetarian diet with a moderate animal protein and purine content, an adequate fluid intake and a high alkali-load with fruits and vegetables results in the lowest risk of uric acid crystallization compared to the omnivorous diets.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:49 PM
  #170  
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You are right about the lack of long term studies on keto - my bad, i was being lazy. I should have worded it inversely " A plant based diet is proven to greatly decreases your risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and inflammation"

As for Dr. Greger & Nutritionfacts.org - he fully admits he is biased - towards the science, towards facts. If the science proved eating burgers was the healthy way to eat, then that's exactly what he would promote.

Calling his site quackery is just a copout for people who cannot bring themselves to accept that we've been lied to by our governments and the food industry about nutrition. These are very hard to accept ideas. If anything, the food industry is the most guilty of bias, they sponsor studies designed to make unhealthy foods "seem" healthy, until one dives into the data and finds their flaws - that is what Dr. Greger does best.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/ne...do-we-make-him
While there is some zealotry here, the studies that Dr. Greger enthusiastically talks about are from respected journals and merit our attention. I think his videos are worth watching, but keep in mind that there is some cherry picking of data. Of course that doesn't mean the cherries he picks are rotten; they're fine.

There are so many studies that contradict each other. To take it up oneself to read ALL the science and become an expert on the topic would take many lifetimes given the amount of published data out there. So I am doing the 2nd best thing - listening to a select group of Doctors and researchers in the field of nutrition who practice what they preach, are very healthy themselves, have mountains of reputable data backing their ideas, and who do not have a profit motive (selling books and supplements for their own profit for example).

I've also chosen a plant based lifestyle because it is better for the environment. And lastly while i personally did not do it to save animal's lives, now that I'm doing it, I have to say it does feel good that no animals are harmed because of how i choose to eat.

Last edited by mickeyaaaa; 07-24-19 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 07-25-19, 06:32 AM
  #171  
MartinIan
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I prefer running
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Old 07-25-19, 07:04 AM
  #172  
OBoile
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Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Completely true: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14673606

The effect of a vegetarian and different omnivorous diets on urinary risk factors for uric acid stone formation.
Abstract

BACKGROUND:

About 10-15% of all urinary stones are composed of uric acid. A high urinary uric acid excretion, a low urine volume and an acidic urinary pH value are suggested to be the most important risk factors for uric acid stone formation.

AIM OF THE STUDY:






The effect of a vegetarian diet and different omnivorous diets on the risk of uric acid crystallization was investigated.

METHODS:















Ten healthy male subjects ingested a self-selected meat-containing diet (SD) for two weeks, and three different standardized diets for a period of 5 days each. The Westerntype diet (WD) was representative of the usual dietary habits,whereas the balanced omnivorous diet (OD) and the ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet (VD) were calculated according to the requirements.

RESULTS:






















The risk of uric acid crystallization was highest on the ingestion of diets SD and WD, due to the high urinary uric acid excretion and the acidic urinary pH. The relative supersaturation with uric acid declined significantly by 85% on the intake of diet OD, consequent to the decrease in uric acid excretion and concentration and the increase in urinary pH value. The ingestion of the vegetarian diet VD led to a further significant reduction in the risk of uric acid crystallization by 93% compared to diet WD.

CONCLUSIONS:
























The results indicate that the intake of a balanced vegetarian diet with a moderate animal protein and purine content, an adequate fluid intake and a high alkali-load with fruits and vegetables results in the lowest risk of uric acid crystallization compared to the omnivorous diets.
I must have totally missed where you mentioned kidney stones in your original post:
Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
Keto works for weight loss in some cases, but greatly increases your risk of cardovascular disease, diabetes, stroke, and increases inflammation. Turns your body's ph balance more acidic - very bad for long term health.
Still not seeing it. But don't worry, this study with 10 whole participants doing a diet for 5 days shows that a vegetarian diet has slightly less uric acid excreted than an omnivorous diet has me convinced. Never mind that, by showing how the body regulates acidity, this study specifically refutes your statement about the body's pH levels changing.

Just give it up already. A plant-based diet is not inherently healthier. It beats a standard western diet, but then so does pretty much every other diet, including ones that are essentially the polar opposite of veganism.

Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
I've also chosen a plant based lifestyle because it is better for the environment.
That, at least, is generally true.
Originally Posted by mickeyaaaa View Post
it does feel good that no animals are harmed because of how i choose to eat.
This is not. Fewer animals are harmed, but lots of animals still die in order for you to eat.
From your link on nutrition facts:
You will never see Dr. Greger refer to a study that shows anything positive about meat
But he's totally unbiased right?
Every video either spoke about the benefits of some plant component in the diet or the harm caused by some chemical in animal products. It turns out that Dr. Greger has swallowed the vegan philosophy hook, line and sinker;
Yep... totally unbiased.
but keep in mind that there is some cherry picking of data.
How very scientific of him.
...guesting on the Dr. Oz Show. Surely that is the ultimate recognition of scientific expertise!
I'm actually wondering if that article is a parody. Dr. Oz? Well, that settles it.

The article then links to a video discussion the evils of eggs... something that mainstream science considers to be quite healthy.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:16 AM
  #173  
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Low-Carb, High-Fat: Nina Teicholz on why you should eat butter, meat, and cheese

Podcast with Amy Alkon and Nina Teicholz

Saturated fat is your friend. Really.

It turns out everything we've been told about eating fat is wrong. On tonight's show, meticulous journalist Nina Teichholz will lay out the scientific errors, bias, and dangerous misrepresentations that have underpinned the dietary dogma of the past 60 years.

She'll also lay out the findings of solid science -- why eating more dietary fat will lead us to better health and fitness.
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Old 07-25-19, 09:54 AM
  #174  
OBoile
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Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
The prevailing belief, supported by the majority of research IMO, is that too much saturated fat is still unhealthy. Like nutritionsfacts, your sources aren't exactly unbiased either.

Having said that, I do think (and this is just my opinion) it likely isn't nearly as bad as people have believed previously. While I would certainly never do something as idiotic as putting butter in my coffee to make it "healthier", and I still prefer lean meat to more fatty versions, I don't really focus on the amount of saturated fat I consume.
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Old 07-25-19, 10:14 AM
  #175  
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What kind of chain lube do you use? I prefer NFS.
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