hobkirk

I have a Lotus Odyssey that I bought new about 1980. It has Suntour friction shifters that I have always hated (tighten the bail tight enough so they hold makes them hard to shift). I am contemplating updating the bike to a six or seven speed with indexed shifting. The current shift levers are on the downtube and they are fitted to a bracket that wraps around the downtube. The "post" (visible after removing the lever) is round.

If I do this, it is with the idea that this might become my bad-weather bike (I live in MA, we have cold and snow). And I'm old and fat and we have hills (my Roubaix has an Ultegra triple with 11-32 cassette). I can live with 50/34 and 11-28 but I cannot handle much less. I very much love the indexed shifting (I've ridden with 105 and Ultegra 10-speeds). I could (I think) live with downtube shifters.

What are my options? I am looking at solutions with used parts.

1. How many gears are reasonable? I have SIX now and the current dropout spacing is approximately 130 mm. I have an excellent range of car mechanic (and woodworking) tools and experience using tools. I think I remember Sheldon said it could be done.
2. Do old indexed downtube shifters work as smoothly as modern STI?
3. I looked at a couple of "indexed" downtube shifters on eBay and it looked like they needed square (rect.?) bosses - what do I need to look for it I try this route?
4. I plan on getting a new RD to match whatever shifters I get so I have the correct "throw" (I think that's the correct term)? The current Lotus RD is trash so I will need a new one regardless.
5. Are my old brakes (with Kool Pads) roughly comparable to new brakes?

Or maybe I will find some money and go "modern" - 8, 9. or 10 speed -

1. Will modern brake calipers fit? My Lotus has enough clearance I can mount fenders.
2. Sticking with 10-speed and shifting brake levers would be best I think - or is there a problem? Are any Shimano gruppos that are less expensive than 105 adequate for a winter bike, especially since I am planning on used gear?
3. Is there any problem going 8 or 9 speed (instead of 10) other than needing a different chain?

Thanks, oh thanks for your time and suggestions.

skoda2

Greetings
You should be able to use a 7sp freewheel(I suspect you have a threaded hub) and Shimano NOS SIS(indexed) downtube shifters, I believe they are available on e-bay. The short cage(inexpensive) rear derailleur for sale on bikenashbar.com will work great and not break the bank, and IMHO will shift better than Alivio or other shimano downscale derailleurs. Forget anything over 7sp, as I don't believe you will find compatible down tube shifters. Yes your brakes will work fine with Kool-Stop shoes.
Regards

RubeRad

Hi hobkirk!

You may try disassembling, cleaning, and reassembling your shifters (take great care to take notes/pictures to help you maintain the order and perhaps even orientation of all the parts!) and you might find that the shifters work more to your satisfaction. There is apparently a little debate whether friction shifters should be reassembled with no grease, light grease on parts that go around other parts (i.e. central spindle), or even light grease on everything. I guess you could start with none, if that doesn't seem smooth, try it just on the spindle, etc.

Failing that, I don't think you should have any problems replacing your old shifters with new ones, assuming you buy a set that comes with their own clamp-on bosses. Indexed six-speed shifters are abundant. You might also consider moving up to stem-mounted, perhaps more comfortable for old fat dudes like me and you.

If you search eBay for "stem shifter" you find lots of options (many of them friction-only, but they should be pretty good, especially "Suntour Power"). If you search for "stem shifter 6" you find some indexed options.

Note however if you move your shifters from downtube to stem, you will need cable stops. Two bikes of mine had standard braze-on bosses and i was able to use these, I'm not sure what would be the best solution for you, perhaps clamp-on stops? Or perhaps the ones I used would fit on the clamp-on bosses you have? If you take some pics, we might be able to come up with some more specific recommendations.

RubeRad

Yes, skoda2 is right you can also easily consider 7sp, that would only require changing your wheel's freewheel. You also have to make sure that your new shifters either come with a clamp, or fit on the clamped-bosses you have.

Going to 8+ speeds is almost certainly possible, but then you have to deal with issues including cold-setting (spreading) the rear dropouts to the wider modern standard, buying a replacement wheel with a cassette hub (or buying a cassette hub and probably spokes and paying to rebuild the wheel), buying a cassette, buying a rear derailleur, and buying a chain (as well as buying shifters -- perhaps the most expensive part!)

Note if you are considering messing with brakes as well, you could consider Retroshifts, which allow you to mount your shift levers (whatever friction or indexed ones you end up with) on the front of your brake levers, making it kind of like modern STI.

bikemig 

I'm a little surprised that your old bike is 130 in the rear but that makes your life easy. You can readily run 8, 9, or 10 (as well as 7) on the back. With the 130 mm rear spacing, you just need a rear wheel that is compatible with Shimano 8, 9, or 10 cassettes. Then you'll need the appropriate cassette and chain to match. Also you'll need to find the shifters. Shimano 8, 9, and 10 speed bar end shifters are available on amazon. Microshift also sells shimano compatible shifters. Personally, I'd go with the 9s since everything is readily available. A compact up front with a wide ranging rear makes a lot of sense and with 9 on the rear you don't need to worry about lacking suitably spaced gears. I just set up my Salsa Casseroll with 9 speed bar end shifters, a new shimano 105 RD, 9 speed chain, and 9 speed cassette. It's pretty easy. Also no problem finding brakes that work; the new dual pivot sidepull brakes work better than the old single pivot that probably came on the Lotus.

I'll attach a pic of my Salsa which I built up this summer since it is close to what you are thinking of doing with your Lotus:

fietsbob

friction shifters work fine, smooth and continuous travel , only the limit screws stop the swing of the rear derailleur.

as long as the 'speeds' stacked on the hub are not too dense.
you can learn, with your hand, how to move the right distance, between gears.

7 speeds work fine, 8th is spaced like 7 (but i hate 8 speed freewheels ) ..

stop there at 7 .. . the spacing density goes up from there..

HillRider

The problem you are going to have is finding clamp-on downtube indexing shifters of any speed. The bosses on the clamp-ons you now have aren't compatible with any standard braze-on shifter. I see a couple of alternatives:

1. Bar end shifters.
2. Retroshift (retroshift.com) brake levers mounting downtube shifters.

Either will work using a downtube clamp-on cable housing stop. These are available from Rivendell ( https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/ca6.htm) or any older bike shop may have some around as they were common on old bikes with stem shifters. Also, both alternatives open up the full range of speeds from 6 to 10.

hobkirk

Excellent!
I feared the bosses were going to be a problem. Thanks for the verification.
And thanks for the Rivendell link - I was contemplating having to jury-rig something if I had to move the shifters.

rowebr

You have other options besides replacement of the shifters.

+1 to the suggestion to try taking apart and cleaning the old suntour shifters. Take pictures with your phone so you have a reference for the arrangement of all the small parts inside. I've had good results with using a little grease everywhere when putting them back together. You could see a big improvement from this.

If the shifter cables and housing are old, there could be corrosion inside which is adding a lot of friction. If that is the case you would get much smoother/easier shifting by replacing them.

I use the original Suntour shifters on my '81 Bianchi, with a modern 9-speed cassette and modern rear derailleur, and that works just fine for me.

bikemig 

Agreed, there's something to be said for sticking with 7. Also Shimano has 7 speed STI's available: https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-ST-A07...no+sti+7+speed

Also frame clamp is available on amazon, https://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Clamp-...downtube+clamp.

If your dropouts are spaced at 130 and you want to stick with 7 speed, you will need a spacer if running a wheel designed for 8-9-10 speeds.

hobkirk

Thank you all.

• "Stem mounted shifters" - that would help
• "Retroshift" - I have never heard of them. Interesting but not for me.
• "Bar end shifters" - A good solution that had failed to penetrate my thick skull - I will consider that, although indexing seems most common for 9 and 10 speeds (having spent a good three minutes searching eBay!)

Now I realize, after reading your collective wisdom, that I need to first decide if I am going to about the rear wheel:

1. Stick to my original rear wheel (and figure out whether a 7-speed cassette would fit)
2. Adapt the original wheel for 7 - OR 8, 9, or 10
3. Get a new wheel

Several of you are wrong, IMO. Or maybe (probably!) you are more capable than I am. The friction shifters that came on my Lotus (a pretty good bike when I bought it) NEVER shifted well. I owned a car repair (VW, Audi, Porsche) business at the time - my business was solving mechanical problems (although zero experience with bicycles). I tried to set them up repeatedly and I would adjust them while I was riding - frequently. But they were never satisfactory. I even tried safety wiring the bails - that actually helped a little by letting me pre-load the tension.

That said, I don't want to spend the time reaching down to shift and then adjusting it slightly up or down. I like indexed shifting. Add "lazy" to "old" and "fat."

randomgear

As an earlier poster mentioned Suntour Powershifts, either clamp on style for the downtube or bar-end style. The bar-end style will mean re-doing your bar wrap. The PowerShift on my '84 Dawes have no no tension adjustment bail loop on them, I find them to work just fine on an 8 speed freehub.. For even fancier downtube shifters, and about 3 pr 4 times the cost, Simplex Retro Friction are available on Ebay.

Note that both these are friction shifters - the Suntour Power Shift using a spring, pawl, and ratchet to even out the shift feel. I haven't tried any of the indexing versions, I think accushift may be one model, but the friction only Powershift I have works very well. The Simpelx Retro Friction uses just a spring and are supposed to feel even better, but I haven't had the chance to try them out yet. The modern ratcheting shifters, such as Silvers, have an adjustment bail wire loop that just doesn't cut it in the rain, at least the set I have on my one such equipped ride.

RubeRad

Make sure you understand the difference between a freewheel and a freehub+cassette. Freewheels screw on to old hubs (and tighten with riding, so they can be devilishly hard to remove!), cassettes slide onto splined freehubs. I am 99.99% certain (others can confirm) that if you currently have 6 cogs in the back, you have a freewheel. That means you can easily replace it with a 7sp freewheel, or (remote possibility) 8-sp freewheel. If you want to go to 9 or 10, you must at a minimum replace the entire hub of your rear wheel. It is possible to completely disassemble the wheel and then rebuild it around a new hub with a freehub you can put a cassette on. It may be easier and/or more cost-effective to just get a more modern wheel. It kind of depends on your access to good wheelbuilders, the quality of your current wheel, and how much you might be willing to spend on a new wheel.

Note also that, since you say your dropouts are 130mm (the modern standard), you most likely have a spacer to take up the extra space an old-school 6sp freewheel would leave. If you swap to a 7- (or 8-?) speed freewheel, you may need to get smaller spacer(s).

If you search eBay for "stem shifter 6" or "stem shifter 7" I think you can find plenty of affordable options for indexed shifters that will work for you if you decide to stay within the freewheel world.

RubeRad

This from SB shows freewheel vs cassette:



Here's the article.

ThermionicScott 

I like indexed 7-speed myself -- perhaps too much.

As bikemig pointed out, since your bike is already spaced to 130mm, the world is your oyster for wheels. The simple route would be to buy a modern 8/9/10-speed wheel, use the Problem Solvers 4.5mm spacer behind the cassette, and then pick whatever 7-speed cassette trips your trigger: https://www.niagaracycle.com/categori...settes/7-speed

(Used) 7-speed downtube shifters are plentiful and will last for a long time. Search for 1051, 1055, RX100, A400, A453, A500, A550, 6400... you get the idea.

bikemig 

If you don't want to reach down to shift, get the 7 speed STIs readily available new (or find a 7 speed bar end used) or 8-9-10 speed bar end shifters (also readily available new).

HillRider

The OP's problem still remains; his frame has no way to mount these braze-on shifters.

ThermionicScott 

Ah. Are there clamp-on bands that would allow him to mount the indexed shifters? I haven't had the need to go that route yet.

hobkirk

Such remarkable information. Thank you all.

Here is a little more info for anyone who is curious.

• I measured the dropouts carefully - they are 130 mm.
• I picked up a bike* at a garage sale that has indexed Shimano 600 shifters on the downtube. Boy, it certainly feels vastly better than my Lotus.
• My Lotus currently has a 52-30 triple with 12-24 gears. If I can live with the gears, then I don't have to buy a new free wheel or tool.
• I found this listing on eBay for bolt-on shifters ("50100 New 6 Spd Shimano TY20 Indexed Down Tube Band-On Shifters - 28.6 mm") - https://www.ebay.com/itm/181220714739...84.m1438.l2649 - I did not find any for 7-speed. (It seems like a 7-speed shifter would give me the flexibility to switch to a 7-speed freewheel at some point in the future).

* The garage sale bike is a Nishiki race/TT bike in beautiful condition. There are virtually no marks on any component - most look like they have never been used. Unfortunately it is much too small - 22" (I am 6'1"). And boy is it light! Irresistable at $50!

techsensei

Clamp-on downtube 7-speed indexed shifters: https://www.amazon.com/SunRace-SLR30-...unrace+7+speed

https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-SY20-A...+speed+shifter

hobkirk

There are places other than eBay where things can be bought?

Thank you very much for the link.

HillRider

Interesting. I didn't realize anyone made this type.