How to not get dropped in the rolling hills
11-10-20, 10:56 AM
#26
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360 is pretty elite....if your getting dropped maybe don't spend so much time pulling and rotate out before you blow your load.
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11-10-20, 11:13 AM
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Based on what?? Did you miss the part where he said he's 190cm tall? He's pretty damn lean. I'm shorter and heavier (183cm 83kg), and really don't have any weight to shed, without losing muscle mass anyway, body comp is important when you're talking about weight.
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11-10-20, 11:51 AM
#28
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Hi-I need training/workout ideas on how to improve my fitness so that I don't get dropped in rolling hills during our weekend group ride.
We usually start the ride a dozen strong and end the ride about 5-6, the pace is around 21-22mph right now but they say some days it's even faster. My fellow riders are fast and lean athletes ranging from Cat 1-3.
I am a 40yo male, 6-4, 80kg, and have an FTP around 4.5w/kg. I have a relatively big engine; I go fast on the flats, climb well in stable gradients, but I don't necessarily do well in punchy hills. I am currently Cat 4.
The course is mostly flat to rolling hills ~55mi. The flatter section is earlier where we do a decent rotating paceline but it's the rolling hills thru the end where the ride gets feisty. At the time there's already a decent amount of fatigue in my legs. Then the attacks begin left and right. I can follow the first two or three then I usually get popped. This weekend I realized sometimes I'm too slow to react to attacks even if I hear someone's attacking from behind and I let them create a gap.
My question is what are the workouts that I should be looking at in the winter? Should I try to replicate those efforts in my solo training rides or just stick to my current plan and wait for things to improve? Or should be doing longer endurance rides? I acknowledge everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but I believe there's always room for improvement. Am I hopeless?
I welcome everyone's experience and ideas on this very important matter. Thank you!
We usually start the ride a dozen strong and end the ride about 5-6, the pace is around 21-22mph right now but they say some days it's even faster. My fellow riders are fast and lean athletes ranging from Cat 1-3.
I am a 40yo male, 6-4, 80kg, and have an FTP around 4.5w/kg. I have a relatively big engine; I go fast on the flats, climb well in stable gradients, but I don't necessarily do well in punchy hills. I am currently Cat 4.
The course is mostly flat to rolling hills ~55mi. The flatter section is earlier where we do a decent rotating paceline but it's the rolling hills thru the end where the ride gets feisty. At the time there's already a decent amount of fatigue in my legs. Then the attacks begin left and right. I can follow the first two or three then I usually get popped. This weekend I realized sometimes I'm too slow to react to attacks even if I hear someone's attacking from behind and I let them create a gap.
My question is what are the workouts that I should be looking at in the winter? Should I try to replicate those efforts in my solo training rides or just stick to my current plan and wait for things to improve? Or should be doing longer endurance rides? I acknowledge everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but I believe there's always room for improvement. Am I hopeless?
I welcome everyone's experience and ideas on this very important matter. Thank you!
Last edited by RiceAWay; 11-10-20 at 11:55 AM.
11-10-20, 11:51 AM
#29
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Based on his weight being 176 lbs. I saw his height. I understand that he is already lean, but this is an area that can be addressed.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/why-is-weight-so-important-in-cycling-part-1/
Last edited by growlerdinky; 11-10-20 at 12:11 PM.
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11-10-20, 12:04 PM
#30
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I smoke the compact cranks on fast downhill rollers. My only advantage but it's so fun when I get it.
11-10-20, 12:09 PM
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Sorry but I have to question full time power like that. I used to be able to turn out power like at and at that time we were the same size. But 10 minutes of that and I was with the red lanterns. Either your power meter is extremely inaccurate or that isn't full time power. You have to be able to hold that sort of power for over 20 minutes before you could even train up to holding 300 full time. And remember that you aren't going to be able to stick with climbers no matter how much you train. You're too big, lose too much to air resistance and are likely to break carbon fiber bikes. That sort of power can ruin BB90 bottom brackets in Trek Madones unless the BB90 was perfectly installed. Which doesn't mean you can't be a Cat 1 since crits are all about short term power and if you can make that much power or anywhere near that you can pound out the 1,600 watts between corners.
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11-10-20, 12:19 PM
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Based on his weight being 176 lbs. I saw his height. I understand that he is already lean, but this is an area that can be addressed.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/w...ycling-part-1/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/w...ycling-part-1/
11-10-20, 12:36 PM
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Yes, weight is important, but someone who is already that lean is most likely going to sacrifice power to drop any more weight, which is not going to help him at all. That article talks about dropping 15lbs and maintaining your current FTP, for someone who is already most likely in the single digits for bodyfat, that is just not happening. I've been 15lbs lighter than where I am now, and was slower (as a runner, my weight has been pretty steady as a cyclist), there's a tipping point, and it's different for everyone.
11-10-20, 12:37 PM
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A fall-back is 1 hour rides at a steady 75% FTP, as many as you can squeeze into a week. I use my resistance rollers for those - quicker than gearing up to go out. Your breathing should be conversational and no HR drift if you watch HR. If those aren't true, slow down a bit - taxing your anaerobic is a no-no.
With some simple changes to the way you ride, you can make it up hills a lot faster while fatiguing less. As long as you focus on these two simple points, you will find your riding style begin to change.
Remember to always keep your back straight. I see tons of tons of bikers every single day riding with a horrifyingly slouched back. This simple point alone will help you keep your body tight, resulting in better power transfer
do some basic full body strengthening workouts. You can do bodyweight, light dumbbells, resistance bands, or whatever you have laying around your house.
Remember to keep everything nice and tight - your back, abs, legs, shoulders pinned back, etc. By scooting my ass back and focusing on involving my glutes/hamstrings more (by simply squeezing my butt and using your core as a stabilizer) I am able to transfer a lot more power to the ground.
My most helpful suggestion would be to do basic full body/core strengthening workouts off the bike
best of luck
Remember to always keep your back straight. I see tons of tons of bikers every single day riding with a horrifyingly slouched back. This simple point alone will help you keep your body tight, resulting in better power transfer
do some basic full body strengthening workouts. You can do bodyweight, light dumbbells, resistance bands, or whatever you have laying around your house.
Remember to keep everything nice and tight - your back, abs, legs, shoulders pinned back, etc. By scooting my ass back and focusing on involving my glutes/hamstrings more (by simply squeezing my butt and using your core as a stabilizer) I am able to transfer a lot more power to the ground.
My most helpful suggestion would be to do basic full body/core strengthening workouts off the bike
best of luck
I think this is the sticking point. I'm nowhere near in your league (and I'm 20 years older than you), but the thing that stuck out in your OP was that your legs are tiring during a 55 mile ride. When I am in good summer shape (for me), I'm doing a century most every Saturday and probably also 2-3 other rides/week above 50 miles. If I go on a tough ride with riders better than me, it will probably be 50-60 miles and on a Wednesday evening. I may get blown out, but tired legs will be the least of my concerns. It will be simply because I don't have their watts, either in FTP or in the sprints.
If you really want to improve, you need more time for training. But I would be the last person to suggest that you should neglect your childcare duties to do more training. In a few years, your kids will be older and will require less of your time. You'll still be pretty young by my standards, and you can really dedicate yourself to training. That's my $0.02.
If you really want to improve, you need more time for training. But I would be the last person to suggest that you should neglect your childcare duties to do more training. In a few years, your kids will be older and will require less of your time. You'll still be pretty young by my standards, and you can really dedicate yourself to training. That's my $0.02.
There is def room for improvement there. I got a bit excited early on in recent rides.
11-10-20, 12:44 PM
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Based on his weight being 176 lbs. I saw his height. I understand that he is already lean, but this is an area that can be addressed.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/w...ycling-part-1/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/w...ycling-part-1/
11-10-20, 12:50 PM
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i can certainly relate. They call it the razors edge for a reason. Like I said, you're already super fit, and everybody else already brought up drafting/hitting the bottom of the incline up front, etc. i only mentioned weight because it's one of the only remaining factors.
Also - I see you are a rower. I've started integrating rowing into the regime. Wish I had started years ago.
Last edited by growlerdinky; 11-10-20 at 12:54 PM.
11-10-20, 01:08 PM
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Sorry but I have to question full time power like that. I used to be able to turn out power like at and at that time we were the same size. But 10 minutes of that and I was with the red lanterns. Either your power meter is extremely inaccurate or that isn't full time power. You have to be able to hold that sort of power for over 20 minutes before you could even train up to holding 300 full time. And remember that you aren't going to be able to stick with climbers no matter how much you train. You're too big, lose too much to air resistance and are likely to break carbon fiber bikes. That sort of power can ruin BB90 bottom brackets in Trek Madones unless the BB90 was perfectly installed. Which doesn't mean you can't be a Cat 1 since crits are all about short term power and if you can make that much power or anywhere near that you can pound out the 1,600 watts between corners.
11-10-20, 01:28 PM
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Yes It's different for everyone, but we're not talking about everyone. We're talking about competitive cyclists, and not only that, we're talking about competitive cyclists going up hills. OP is already very fit, but still heavy for the inclines, unless he's freaking Miguel Indurain.
Of course being lighter is nice but I don't think it is the issue here as he is talking about rolling hills, not climbing mountains.
11-10-20, 01:31 PM
#39
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My guess is that you have been a competitive rower and thus competing in under 7 minute events. That gave you a huge anaerobic engine for which you probably had a genetic propensity. As others have said, now you need to build an aerobic engine to match. I'm in sort of the same boat as it were, as I've been doing hilly rides with better climbers than I for 25 years. I used to be able to outsprint all of them. It's time for me to take a step back and build up a stronger aerobic engine this fall and winter. So that's all I've been doing: 75% FTP on my rollers and outdoors, in and out of saddle. The high end comes back quickly for me, the low end is a long slog, not as much fun. Posters here diagnosed my problem, whether they realized it or not.
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11-10-20, 01:37 PM
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By the way, I'm not saying that any other bits of advice given to the original question are wrong, or invalid. i am merely trying to say what hadn't been said, but is still relevant.
Last edited by growlerdinky; 11-10-20 at 01:41 PM.
11-10-20, 02:35 PM
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11-10-20, 07:50 PM
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When you figure out the answer to 'how not to get dropped on rolling hills', let me know because I have the same problem.
Better yet, bottle it and sell it.
Better yet, bottle it and sell it.
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11-10-20, 09:15 PM
#44
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Are you saying that finding any means to improve aerodynamics is useless in rolling hills?
Rolling hills isn't a mountain as others have mentioned. Even if you draft, aerodynamics would still matter. The lower you are on the bike, the more you get your body within the slipstream of the guy you're drafting.
And conversely, the lower you are on the bike and the more aero you become, the less effective your slipstream will be to the guy drafting behind you!
Even if the OP is tall..... If flexibility permits, this is one of the biggest gains in speed you can get if you've just about reached the boundaries of your performance.
Rolling hills isn't a mountain as others have mentioned. Even if you draft, aerodynamics would still matter. The lower you are on the bike, the more you get your body within the slipstream of the guy you're drafting.
And conversely, the lower you are on the bike and the more aero you become, the less effective your slipstream will be to the guy drafting behind you!
Even if the OP is tall..... If flexibility permits, this is one of the biggest gains in speed you can get if you've just about reached the boundaries of your performance.
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11-10-20, 10:31 PM
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I hate rolling hills like that, and they hate me.
It's power that matters, but if you're going anaerobic too many times you'll blow up. If your FTP is 360W, a 2 hour race could be done at an average of 340W (-5% for every double of time.) On the flat part take short pulls and conserve your power as much as possible. Try not to needlessly exceed your FTP too many times. Make the bigger guys do the work and tuck in behind them. Your already at a disadvantage against bigger guys with with same FTP.
Try to carry as much momentum downhill as possible and just before you hit the saddle point shift to a small gear and spin like crazy. Don't wait to shift and don't not pedal downhill hill to the saddle point, you'll loose too much momentum. It's better to shift early and spin at 110rpm or higher until you hit the grade. Try to spin up at high cadence and keep your butt in the saddle.
A 0.5mile 7% grade should take around 3 minutes at 340W, so hill intervals spinning at this power in the saddle would be good drills to get your brain used to the idea.
Who ever said it was all downhill after 40y?
It's power that matters, but if you're going anaerobic too many times you'll blow up. If your FTP is 360W, a 2 hour race could be done at an average of 340W (-5% for every double of time.) On the flat part take short pulls and conserve your power as much as possible. Try not to needlessly exceed your FTP too many times. Make the bigger guys do the work and tuck in behind them. Your already at a disadvantage against bigger guys with with same FTP.
Try to carry as much momentum downhill as possible and just before you hit the saddle point shift to a small gear and spin like crazy. Don't wait to shift and don't not pedal downhill hill to the saddle point, you'll loose too much momentum. It's better to shift early and spin at 110rpm or higher until you hit the grade. Try to spin up at high cadence and keep your butt in the saddle.
A 0.5mile 7% grade should take around 3 minutes at 340W, so hill intervals spinning at this power in the saddle would be good drills to get your brain used to the idea.
Who ever said it was all downhill after 40y?
11-10-20, 10:35 PM
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I realize that I have disadvantages that can't be addressed by training/nutrition etc. It's W for me even if I get dropped 5 minutes later. I don't know what is a full time power. One hour max power? I don't think I ever tested for that but I have recent TT like effort. I have two PMs; one on my TCR and Quarq d-four on another bike. Kurt Kinetic's PM most definitely reads 10-20w higher so I adjust that mentally if I'm on the trainer but the other two produce quite similar results.
I don't think it's a big deal. Either way, the answers you've already heard (do less work pulling, get more endurance miles, etc.) are still sound.
11-10-20, 10:57 PM
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So that's an average of 300 W for an hour, orr 3.75 W/kg. Can you give us an idea how you arrived at your estimate of 4.5 W/kg FTP?
I don't think it's a big deal. Either way, the answers you've already heard (do less work pulling, get more endurance miles, etc.) are still sound.
I don't think it's a big deal. Either way, the answers you've already heard (do less work pulling, get more endurance miles, etc.) are still sound.
11-10-20, 11:13 PM
#48
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Maybe, but he posted it in response to the guy who challenged his stated FTP. So I was confused about it. I don't really think that the OPs FTP is main issue here- but rather a discussion about how he can hang with some very strong riders in lumpy terrain.
11-10-20, 11:23 PM
#49
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if I were you, I'd concentrate on my 1-min power at say 125%, because honestly nobody is gonna attack for more than 1 minute in a group ride. So train yourself 1min power, this is for the trainer. Now, you will also need to train your out-of-saddel sprint too like 5s and 10s power. You can't sprint on the trainer, so you'll need to do this on the road. Sprint power requires lots of upperbody and trainer ain't gonna cut it. I knew a "tri guy" who had a huge engine, but he would get popped in a cat4-5 crit all the time. It was because his sprints sucked, and he had to work too hard to hang on, and that meant burning matches in a race like a crit. Now your muscle makeup (genetics) may never make you a sprinter or short-burst type of guy no matter how hard you try to train your short power, so this is something that you'll just have to live with.
But like a few others have said, STOP PULLING INTO A CLIMB!
But like a few others have said, STOP PULLING INTO A CLIMB!
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11-10-20, 11:43 PM
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I'm in a much lower league than the OP, so what I've been doing for years is not what I advised upthread. I'm a very fast descender, don't really know why. Short legs, I think which makes a smaller swept area. When I go over the top, I accelerate like mad then tuck and usually pass everyone by a good bit. When I hit the hill I start pedaling high cadence, downshifting a gear when I drop to 90. I keep that up. After a while, the fast folks pass me because I'm not a powerful rider. I do what I can, but they go by. However most folks go so hard they have to take a break or maybe it's just natural to slow down as one goes over the top. I don't do that, holding my same climbing effort as I go over and all the way into my tuck. So I'm out of phase with the rest of them, but I mostly do keep up. It's just a matter of endurance, which one gets by doing a lot of hard miles. I work my advantage and try to minimize my disadvantage. Riding the occasional 200k with like 7000' is helpful. Of course I was just riding with fast club riders, not racers. Whole different thing, and probably peculiar to my physiology.
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