Jim from Boston

Salmon-ing" on a Sidewalk?I have posted a few times about my acceptable sidewalk cycling circumstances:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston

...Last week I visited the family in Macomb County, MI. IMO, that is some of the nastiest road riding I have ever encountered. The main roads, to get anywhere, are six lane concrete slabs with bumps about every 20 feet, and many cracks and potholes especially on the right, with no shoulders, and heavy, zooming traffic with little patience for (slow) cyclists.

Sidewalks along side are frequently discontinuous, and often non-existent. Even as an experienced urban commuter, I will often flee to the sidewalks, little used by pedestrians out in suburbia.

Jim from Boston

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipjacks

Slightly off topic...but you're kinda bossy.

You've told people how to act in this thread, not to name call, to go to other threads...

If you're not actually this way, please take this as honest constructive criticism of how you come across online, said only to help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by parkbrav

Ok, well, I suggested that you read the thread before you jump in, because many of the points you had raised have already been addressed....Then the usefulness of the thread to me expired. Then you resurrected the thread. I don't know what else I can do to suggest that the thread is over.

Since I am the thread starter, I assume that I have a role here as a bit of a host, and I'm trying to steer away the name calling, yes, I think that's appropriate too, in the absence of the forum moderator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike

You can stop assuming and/or suggesting that the thread is over, because you lost interest in the discussion; you are NOT the host of anything here.

This is seemingly off-topic, but was brought up by the OP, @parkbrav. A while back was a dust-up on a Living Car Free Forum thread about the prerogative of the OP to delete a thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston

...I recall a fairly recent thread, perhaps started by you, Machka, asking how do you sell an LCF/LCL lifestyle (in general), but to my dismay I couldn’t find it....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machka

You're right, I did start a thread like that.
You're also right that you could not find it.
I deleted it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roody

I contributed to that thread, my thoughts and ideas that I took some time to type out. How dare you delete the thread without permission of those who contributed? I think this is outrageous. You have no right! How were you able to even do that?

Actually, I thought the comments by @Skipjacks were kind of snarky, but I have posted to a now-closed thread:In fact just yesterday I posted to a different thread:

Skipjacks

Glad you picked up on that. That is exactly how they were intended.

It was the appropriate reaction to the guy trying to tell everyone else how to live their lives from the proper way to ride a bike to the proper way to post on a message board.

However, if the guy isn't really like that and is just coming across that way online, that was meant as honest constructive criticism, like I said.

Skipjacks

This. The key to anything like this is to go out of your way to be extra safe.

There are no pedestrians on the quarter mile where I do this 99% of the time. But about once a year someone is randomly walking on that sidewalk through an industrial park.

When that happens I slow to a walking pace if I am behind them or stop entirely if they are coming towards me until they pass.

There is plenty of visibility to see a pedestrian well in advance.

I adjust my riding to compensate for the once per year pedestrian.

It's not unsafe for anyone involved.

There is a police station about a mile down the road from here so cops pass me doing this every other day. None have ever cared.

The FAR FAR FAR more dangerous option would be to cross the busy road twice and ride in traffic in the 50mph zone (no shoulder or sidewalk on the other side). More dangerous fro me. More dangerous for cars trying to avoid me.

Jim from Boston

Thanks for your candid reply.

Steely Dan

yep. a little common sense goes a long way.

the absolutists against sidewalk riding often don't seem capable of nuanced thinking. not all sidewalks are the same. not even close.

would i ride my bike down a downtown chicago sidewalk screaming "ON YOUR LEFT!!!" every other second at the throngs of people walking to and fro? of course not. i'm not an idiot.

but a short stretch of very rarely used sidewalk that goes past a sewage plant tucked away on northside side-street that allows me to get to the trailhead of a MUP? hell yeah i'm gonna ride that.

and the once a month or so that i actually do encountere a pedestrian on that short stretch of sidewalk, i use common sense and slow way down and give a wide berth to the pedestrian.

i don't want to injure a pedestrian with my bike any more than i want to be injured by a motorist. what's the cost of spending a handful of seconds on safety?

Skipjacks

Right?

And blind adherence to bicycling laws that say I have to ride on the road with traffic would put me in mortal danger every day. While riding on the unused sidewalk reduces danger to a small fraction of what it is riding on this particular street.

The intent of the 'don't ride on the sidewalk' law was to make things safer. And 90% of the time it's probably a good idea to stay off the sidewalk. But riding on that one street makes things less safe. So I don't do it. That's not in compliance with the letter of the law but it's in full compliance with the spirit of that law.

When lawmakers create such a law they are not looking at every inch of the thousands of miles of sidewalk in the county. Sometimes the law makes things worse in spots, and blind adherence to such a law is nothing short of dumb. Why would I put my life in considerable risk to adhere to a law created with different situations in mind?

madpogue 

^^^^^^ And golly, this sounds like "in a manner consistent with that of a pedestrian", which is the wording typically found in local ordinances that speak to bicycling on a sidewalk.So SOME sidewalk ordinances have some sanity written into them.

The other takeaway from all this is that whichever direction you're bicycling on a sidewalk, it's irrelevant to the direction of the adjacent motor traffic.

RubeRad

+1
For me it's not a strict must, but it's extremely convenient for me to salmon on a sidewalk for about 300m to make a left turn into a driveway where the road has a hard curb median, so I can't (easily/safely) get across right there.

Also coming out of my townhome complex, riding 'downtown' for errands is a left turn, so I take the sidewalk until I get to the intersection with the light where I cross.

The key is, I consider the sidewalk not to be my home; I ride slowly and courteously. Always leaving oncoming pedestrians plenty of room; never buzzing pedestrians going my way; if they have headphones on and don't hear me, I keep my distance and just roll at their speed, so if they do notice me they don't think I'm trying to get past them (because I'm not). Maybe if it's a long time I'll look for an opportunity to hop off the curb and salmon in the bike lane for a few seconds.

But this being SoCal, there are hardly any pedestrians anyways, so I only ride on sidewalks because they are underused public resources. If there were lots of pedestrians, I probably would not ride on the sidewalk.

RubeRad

I like that too. I don't know if my local laws include a phrase like that, but I think that principle gets to the heart of it.

Mitkraft

Something that was mentioned earlier in the thread reminded me of a nuance many not be realizing. This discussion could be very different depending on the urban/suburban perspective. When I described salmoning in a few places on my commute I didn't even think to say that on my 12 mile commute I can probably count the number of pedestrians I pass each way one hand.

gracehowler

My Dad taught me to ride with cars, as cars do on roads at the ripe old age of 6, today, I am comfortable with autos.On my own, I decided sideWALKS are for mostly pedestrians and unfortunately for cyclists, the walkers have the right of way most places in America. I know there are times sidewalks speed a commute, but am constantly amazed of the inconveniences cyclists put up with just to ride on a sidewalk.
R

Cycle Tourist

Only if you want to save his life should you comment. Not only that but the disrespect he engenders in motorists risks your life as well. If you leave him alone his eventual death will eliminate the problem. Your choice.

Cycle Tourist

I understand and see your point but as someone that had a cyclists plow into me at a blind intersection it's hard to see many instances where that would be true. Drivers do not expect to encounter speedy "pedestrians" going the wrong way at intersections and rarely look for them before shooting into a gap in traffic. I can't believe the number of people that are ok with this behavior. I always follow the traffic lanes even on the busiest of intersections. If I were less competent I'd probably walk my bike though the tougher intersections. I'm over 70 so I must be doing something right.

Skipjacks

I never said anything about an intersection or shooting into gaps in traffic. That stuff is insane.

I'm talking about reaching a busy highway, and keeping myself on the side of the highway I need to be on a 1/4 mile down the road. And staying the heck out of 50mph traffic. And not crossing the highway WITHOUT an intersection present, where no driver is suddenly expecting a bike to be parallel to the flow of traffic.

Gunga Dan

It's called a sideWALK. Anyone over the age of 12 who attempts to ride their bike on the sideWALK should be ticketed. The answer to areas with dangerous road conditions for bikers is to change those conditions so the bikers are safe, NOT to allow the bikes on the sidewalks so you're simply shifting the danger to pedestrians. If there's a section of road you're not comfortable biking on, don't bike there. If there's a short section of a trip which is otherwise fine in the street where you simply MUST use the sidewalk, get off your bike and walk it. Biking should be encouraged for many reasons, we all know that. What needs to be done is to have the ROADS set up so adult bikers can ride there safely & comfortably. I've biked & walked pretty extensively all over the country, even in insane traffic like LA. I've lost count of the number of times I've been nearly plowed into by some adult nitwit who thinks they have the right to BIKE on the sideWALK. I have no sympathy for that.

yukiinu

Every morning I would be eating breakfast at McDonalds and looking out the window and I would see this very old man walking with a cane step from the curb and shuffle across the street that had a stop sign. Also, every morning I would would watch the same car come up the adjoining street at a fast speed, do a fast rolling stop through the stop sign while looking to his left for on coming traffic and make a right turn. And yes, you guessed it. One morning the old man stepped off the curb, the car came up fast, the driver was looking left away from the old man, ran the stop sign making his right turn, and ran over the old man. A "salmoning" bicycle on the sidewalk, entering a intersection at a quick speed where cars will be making right turns at that intersection will sooner or later be hit by a car making a right turn without stopping. Show the biker this post and maybe he will understand how dangerous salmoning on the sidewalk is.

RubeRad

Unless the cyclist on the sidewalk approaches all intersections with low enough speed high enough vigilance

madpogue 

How is the above story less than 100% the car driver's fault? At any speed, anyone entering that crosswalk requires the driver to STOP.

Of course, it's still irrelevant to the most recent scenario, since there are no interesections in the sidewalk described therein.

Skipjacks

And busy downtown LA is exactly the same as a pedestrian free industrial park in suburban Maryland, right?

So 1 absolute rule that governs all sidewalks from coast to coast is appropriate, right?

350htrr

I'll tell you how it is not the drivers fault... The driver comes to a stop, glances right and nobody, no (pedestrian) standing or is anywhere nearby there to cross the road, the driver looks over his shoulder to the left to safely enter the roadway going right and... ( Blamo), some stupid person riding their bicycle at full speed comes ripping across the intersection (salmon-ing) and T-bones the car, whose fault is that...???

Gunga Dan

No, of course not. Every MILLIMETER of sidewalk should be individually assessed, with a law individually written to govern each and every one. After all, nothing leads to predictably safe behavior in potentially dangerous situations like INCONSISTENCY.

Traffic laws are in fact generally the same across the country, I see no reason this should be any different. And you seem to be missing my main point. What we need to accomplish is SAFE ROADWAYS for bikers, clearly marked properly set up bike lanes, etc.

madpogue 

Wait -- the old man was ripping across the intersection full speed on a bicycle? And how does a rolling "stop" constitute "coming to a stop"? You do understand that the question was about the rolling-stop driver and the old man, right?

Actually, when entering the roadway in that situation, the driver should be looking to her/his RIGHT once again, AFTER looking left, exactly because a pedestrian may be entering the crosswalk after s/he has looked to the left. S/he should be sufficiently certain that car traffic from the left is sufficiently clear (that is, far enough away or non-existent) that s/he can look to the right again while entering the roadway.

But once again, since the most recent (suburban Maryland, dump site, etc) situation involves (which of the following two words is unclear?) NO INTERSECTIONS, this story is still irrelevant.

Bill Abbey

Talk to him. Compare notes on the commute. get his input as he may have insights too.

Skipjacks

Yeah god forbid we had general guidelines that could be applied using common sense for the specific situation....

It's so much better to have absolute rules designed for the average be applied to the extremes and enforced with draconian authority. That makes for a much happier free society. (Massive sarcasm alert)

When you drive 56mph on a 55mph zone you to self report your scofflaw behavior to the police and demand to be ticketed?