joe englert

Just curious.....about how much does a re paint effect the value of a vintage bike? For instance....a 1970s masi all original would be about 1500.00 or so but if it had been repainted...even by say a big name like joe bell or cycle art....would that lower the value 10 or even 20 percent? I guess some collectors dont care so much if its a great job and done by a big name. I put a nice Cinelli on ebay which had been re done by cycle art. It looks great...probably better than when it came out of the factory but i notice its not getting many bids.

wrk101

The more collectible the item, the more important it is to have original paint, decals and finish. I screwed up the value on quite a bit of antique furniture by getting it refinished.....

When it looks better than the original, that just is a further signal to the serious collector that the finish is not original.

Old Fat Guy

Just guessing, crappy ad, crappy pictures, crappy description. Maybe you even spelled something wrong, but I'm just guessing, because a search for 'Cinelli cyclart' & 'Cinelli joe bell' come up empty.

You can't sell something on the web for top dollar with crappy cell phone pictures. You did take plenty of detailed pictures, right?

BTW, consider yourself lucky that someone would even bid on that with the ad you have. Cinelli six saddle? Geez...

CyclArt paints their name on the frame, at least spell it right.

texbike

Agreed. Repaints can negatively impact values for collectibles like older SCs. However, as OFG points out, it's the ad in this case that is the problem. I'm impressed that it's reached the price level that it has given the pictures and the description. Personally I would end the auction and relist it with a better description and better pictures using a photo hosting service and HTML. I think that you would get significantly better response.

Texbike

robatsu

Negative, negative, even if old paint is atrocious and new paint is Joe Bell luscious. I do present this as information for those whom the financialization of old bikes is paramount. For others, like me, fretting over a couple of hundred dollars, which is one or two dinners out here in Our Nation's Capital, is a dissertation over angels dancing on a pinhead. If the bike needs to be repainted, by your lights/opinion, get it repainted, If it doesn't, don't repaint. If a repaint of a classic bicycle is a major financial decision for you, one way or the other, probably you shouldn't be messing around with old bikes that may or may not need repainted.

But again, just to be clear, you will never receive 100 cents on the dollar on a repaint job, it will always be a loss. Otherwise, all of us dumb clucks would just go around buying old frames, getting them repainted, and after enough iterations, we would join Warren Buffett's country club.

frenchbikefan

Didn't a repainted something or another just sell for like $16000 on Epay?

joe englert

interesting old cars dont seem to be effected by total restoration. I guess thats a different thing all together.

robatsu

But how many of those recoup the cost of the total restoration as opposed to some fractional value? Same goes w/real estate - don't remodel your kitchen before a sale, you might bet 90 cents on the dollar, but it won't be a profit center.

The only reason to repaint an old frame is because you like the frame and would like it more if it were repainted. There is no reason to do this if you are trying to enhance your financial position in life. Same goes for typical amateur car restoration.

TheOtherGuy

..But they'd still be worth more in perfect original shape, than newly restored. Perfect original will always bring a premium with the big $ cars. Hotrods are a different story, as they were all customs to start with. Still, an important hotrod with well documented history, will bring more $ if kept original, rather than one recently restored.

With the quality of work done by today's top bike painters, you'd think a repaint should be worth more; paint and prep done by them today, is probably much better than the bike originally had. Nice original is still worth more.

robatsu

Again, if new paint jobs on old bikes were consistently profitable, Goldman Sachs would be selling this as an investment vehicle, sorta like they used to with selling mortgages to obvious deadbeats. This isn't an argument against repainting, though, just an argument against repainting as a guaranteed, or at least statistically likely, profit center. Repaint the bike if you want to, just like you repaint your living room if you want to.

Chris W.

So what if I sent my Woodrup back to Woodrup for a restoration would it still loose value? Or Having Peter Weigle refurb one of his own frames?

Cheers,
Chris

LesterOfPuppets

If it's that red 55cm Super Corsa it could've been photographed much better.

Just a wild guess but I figure mismatched rims hurt it more than paint. Two bar plugs, maybe fresh tape might've helped a little. Side pic with pedal on a can or curb instead of that stand might've helped.

Otis

That's not true at all. The trend towards original over restoration has been with cars and motorcycles for years now. Bicycles are just starting to catch up. Clean original examples of the right pieces will always be worth more to serious collectors then restorations.

repechage

Poor images on that red one.

The following is a biased opinion, but shared by others:

Cyclart paint jobs for the most part LOWER THE VALUE EVEN MORE than a respray by others. Ouch. But that is the way it is.

Here is one comparison Joe can relate to:

A Cyclart respray of a Confente had a tranation price of $7,600. a original paint, close is size example sold for close to $11,000. Ouch. I don't care if the owner of Cyclart sprayed the early ones. He did not paint them all, and the better paint was on the bikes he did not paint.

gerv 

However, quite often folks think a bike should be painted because there's a few rust spots on the bike. You can easily treat those spots and prevent further rusting. A little car wax and some shining make the old paint really stand out.

On the other hand, some paint jobs really detract from the original.

joe englert

Yes...i have to get a better camera! I did lousy pics! OK, now....very interesting about the cycle art info. My friend told me he saw a cycle art repaint that had a fly that got trapped under the clear coat and they charged the guy any way the full price. I think cycle art repaints go for five hundred dollars or something like that. I also know that Rollan Della Santa wont do business with them. I did email Cunningham several times about Mario Confente and he seems like one heck of a knowledgeable guy. I think cycle art use to do really good work but over the last several years they got sloppy. Interesting that they seem to have gotten a bad reputation! By the way...didnt Cunningham paint all Confente bikes that were built in the States? Did someone else paint them when he moved up to Monterey? I had a Monterey Confente and thought the paint on that was fantastic

cudak888 

That's because we don't get to see all-original, unrestored C2 Corvettes that spent their entire life indoors as much as we see bicycles of the same age that have.

If you could put a pristine original vehicle next to an over-restored duplicate, most fellows here would gravitate towards the original one. That outrageously smooth, completely wet-sanded clearcoat is exactly what will turn the purists off in any other hobby, and that's why most fellows here are against it.

Finding someone who can execute a repaint absolutely identical to a typical 1970's factory finish - thin, somewhat dull, flawed, and complete with silkscreen or ink decals that aren't under an outrageously thick cleacoat - well, these fellows are few and far between.

Consider the finish on my Peugeot PY-10. It's no award winner. In fact, it's not particularly smooth or glossy at all, but it looks the part - mainly because it is the real deal. Slap a glossy paint job on it, and kill the look; not to mention the lug shorelines.





While we're on the topic of shorelines, let me point out that a sharp shoreline does not excuse a strange paint job either. Consider the ever-prevalent polyurethane Imron/Deltron look (and if you need an example, just look at an early Trek). Sure, it looks deep and glossy without ruining the shorelines, but does it look right? For a 1980's Trek, yes. For Nervex lugs? Questionable:



It reflects too much light in too many directions. I'm tolerant of this repaint; don't know why though. I'd be up in arms if I saw the same thing on a PY-10.

Compare that reflection-laden paint to the factory paint job the '82 Superiors came with:



Even though it's very glossy, it's a lot easier to look at, isn't it? It isn't as thick, and the edges are defined crisply.

Another example - 1980 Team Miyata. Not too glossy, not too dull (mind you, photo shows it in a state necessitating a polish job) and the shorelines are well defined. Very much like the PY10, but the paint is smoother:



On the other hand, a modern pant job. It is nice for a custom (which this is), it's crisp at the edges, and it looks glossy as heck. Would it look right on the Peugeot? No. Does it suit this modern Terraferma track bike? Yes.





Then there are the exceptions to the rule. Here's a KOF from the early 1990's (a MASI Nuova Strada) which has an original paint job no different than the green Terraferma - with decals under the clear as an original feature, no less! Unsurprisingly, the Nuova Stradas were painted by Jim Allen, here in the States. Our obsession with deep clearcoats already corrupted the traditional look before lugged steel frames became passé. At any rate, this is how they came, and I don't dislike it for its appearance, for that's the acceptable appearance for a Nuova Strada, as delivered.



In fact, it might be very difficult to identify a repainted Nuova Strada, for most modern paint jobs (those of which treat the shorelines correctly) wind up looking just like this.

-Kurt

shnibop 

that ad is terrible.

full frame dimensions would help.

more and better pictures would help. detailed pictures to show condition of components and detail shots of the lug work etc... at least a complete bike pic where parts aren't being cut off the image.

has the bike been tuned/overhauled? dents/dings? rust? tube/tire condition? clincher/tubular? stem? chain? freewheel? speeds? pedals? dust caps on crank missing? different rims? have you shipped a bike before? who will be packing it?

Peter_B

Three rather distant in perspective photos .... in those three photos, one cannot assess: nicks/scratches in paint; front of head tube; condition of fork crown and all parts on bike; on and one. Purchasing a bike for that much money with so few photos shot so far away from the bike, is a big risk. Pay attention and look at other eBay auctions like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/270806808378 These ample photos show the prospective purchaser something.

repechage

When Jim went to the East Coast for medical treatment he stopped painting for Mario. He was not asked to resume later. John Grant of Apollo Engraving did painting for Mario for a time even after Mario moved up North to build. Remember the BF member frubin? He got his frame after Mario departed Los Angeles but it was delivered in LA with wet detail paint. Later another local painter up there started painting the frames.

wrk101

+100 Original cars and motorcycles sell at a hefty premium. That's for collectible cars and motorcycles of course.

I think the drop in value would be much greater than the 10% to 20% stated by the OP. Again, it depends on how desirable/collectible the bike is.

balindamood

Simply put, original is better when considering collectable value. However, there are situations where this is not feasible. I have a '75 Moulton (his 16th production frame, and his first "touring" bike). When I got it, the fork blades had started to separate from the crown, and the paint was heavily oxidized. If the fork had not needed re-brazing, I would have left it. Luckily, it was also rather thick, not like alot of the thin production sprays of the time. CyclArt did a good job of matching the original color (from the fork tube), and the paint thickness is close to original. The I am hoping the gloss (which is not consideder "high-gloss" by todays standards, fades soon.
Before:





After:





I have it about 60% re-assembled, but need to replace the old steel Weinmann fenders. I have not had any luck finding any, and may have to give up and use Velo Orange or Tanaka.

dbakl

It really depends on the condition. I've come to believe a bike in presentable original paint should be left alone. A bike that's really trashed or has already been repainted can only be improved. But yes, an original bike will probably always bring more than a repaint.

dbakl

You could rub it out with rubbing or polishing compound which would dull it.

rootboy 

This is a great post Cudak888. Very in-depth, informative, detailed , with nice pictures, you sold me .... and not pejorative. Thanks.