carleton

True. That implies that there is something to "get".

Would you be willing to ride 35mph shoulder to shoulder on a 250m track with her 4 wide in a sprint?...in her first race after a beginners class

You know, because no one else in that first race knows anything about how she races the track either.

gl98115

I think the track manager at Rock Hill after watching the Learning to Race class is in a better position to make a more reasoned decision than an anonymous person on the internet.

carleton

I asked what YOU would do, not what you think of what I've written.

Again, Would you be willing to ride 35mph shoulder to shoulder on a 250m track with her 4 wide in a sprint?...in her first race after a beginners class.

carleton

If it's not obvious, let me clarify where I'm coming from.

NO ONE IS GETTING PAID TO DO THIS. OK, maybe a few. In a recent interview for Time Magazine regarding Bobby Lea, it was written that

This isn't about Bobby. He's a great racer. My point in mentioning those numbers is that we are all in this for fun, not to make a living.

This is about safety.

This isn't the Olympics. This isn't the World Championships. There is only glory for a small few. And there's damn sure no money in it. We ALL spend more than we make doing this. The health benefits are great, but there is a definite strain on personal, family, friend, and business relationships.

Wrecking is rare. Much more rare than on the road/crit scene. I like it that way. But, wrecks and mishaps do happen. I've seen several. Let's name a few:

- A person unclip during a final sprint (a pro woman...if that's relevant). She didn't crash, thankfully. It was a miracle that she stayed up.
- Another unclip (experienced roadie on the track) during a final sprint of a scratch race, 5 wide, flipped over the bars and broke his collar bone. Seriously threatened to sue the bike shop that installed his Speedplays.
- After the end of a sprint for points, a person let off the gas and drove up-track, taking out the wheel of the guy behind him causing a pileup.
- A compound fracture (where the guy's bone was sticking out of his skin) by a beginner who crossed wheels. I think this was in a warmup paceline.
- A head injury where a beginner who crossed wheels in a 5 lap scratch, crashed then convulsed into a seizure until the paramedics arrived.
- A head injury where the (cat 2) woman crossed a wheel during a warmup paceline and flipped forward over her handlebars and ended up with a minor concussion.
- A guy go up track and take out several riders behind him. One of which was severely injured and never raced track again, albeit still volunteers weekly.

I've witnessed all of these (and several more) with my own eyes....like not the aftermath, but actually watching the crash unfold. Every single one of those was preventable and I bet you that every single one of those people wish they had done something differently.

Wrecks involve other people about half of the time. Meaning, if one person crosses a wheel and goes down, guess what happens to the 2 people directly behind that person.

Maybe DLV is different. Maybe we are more strict than other places. Hell, we even group the 20-lap warmup pacelines into ability groups A, B and C

We also have a lot of old, experienced racers that have seen a lot and done a lot and they know how to keep things safe and I really appreciate that. I've seen other organizations (MABRA) be very cavalier about it all and figure, "What's the big deal? It's like a crit but shorter, right?"

Enthusiasm is awesome. Fast legs and strong endurance are awesome (I wish I had them). I'm suggesting that we are sure that we can handle whatever category in which we race, not just assuming or hoping. There is an easy way to be sure: Race a lot in the lower divisions and move up when you are comfortable.

dunderhi

I'm not sure under which situations that MABRA determines track categories, since as a MABRA member my own track categorization was deferred to the T-town track director and that was before I raced a single race in my comeback. He rightfully put me a cat 4, despite the fact that I was previously a cat 2 on the track.

Now as an official, I work with the T-town's M&R race director to categorize new riders. Everyone rides cat 5 on their first day, including cat 2 road riders. I usually talk to a new rider at the end of their first day, especially if had ridden off the front in every race and hadn't learned anything at all. On the other hand, if the rider is physically superior to his peers AND displays reasonable pack skills, I will recommend upgrading to cat 4 for the next week. If, after few more weeks, he consistently demolishes the cat 4 ranks AND doesn't scare me or his competitors, then I will recommend that he move to Tuesdays to ride with the 3's.

BTW, this is what happens when a fast cat 4 wins a race that contains Masters 2 & 3 riders. He rode faster than his track skills. As you might expect, I talked to him after the race and shared the pics below just to let him know that the officials saw his rookie error.

M&R-A-Feature.jpg

ruudlaff

That picture made me chuckle.

I would reckon that everyone remembers the first time they they got a kick after letting off the gas at the line

carleton

This was in 2011 for the Regional Championships when I lived in NOVA. I don't recall this event having much (or any) input from TTown staff.

That's a great program!

Great frame grab. I've never seen it captured like that. It's crazy how the body contorts because the cranks don't care, hahaha

I still don't understand how the rear wheel always comes up. I'd have to see a slow motion video of it. Is it that the cranks push the rear leg up driving the rider up out of the saddle and over the bars?

Yeah, I call it "getting bucked" (like on a horse). It's fairly common for new riders and it usually only takes one time for people to learn, hahaha

rensho3

This kind of thing happens in Master's 60+ and up sprints, where there is no longer a requirement that you be at least a 3 on the track to race, even at Natz. I am rubbing the hole in my head where I had two subdural hematomas removed after a guy who asked my wife (pre race, at Natz) how he should ride a match sprint was allowed to compete! I agree with Carleton completely. Because they let people like this ride, she now does not allow me to ride in mass start races of any type. While I miss the rush of doing those kind of races, the dent in the old melon reminds me why it is not a good idea.

Dalai

Having a plate and screws in my collarbone from a young guy who dropped into the duckboard in a bend at 55 km/hr directly in front of me (low numbers that evening meant they combined B grade with our A grade) I agree!
Naively didn't have private insurance at the time as I though my insurance through my Cycling Australia licence would cover such contingencies... Ended up 2 weeks off work, over $2000 out of pocket (insurance covered some but not all of the operation) and a written off bike from the guys rookie error! Still haven't raced there since the crash in 2014!

TDinBristol

Guys,

I'm not one of the "in crowd" on this forum (far from it!), but please ease up on the young lady. She seems to be a) coming in with the right questions, and b) expressing due caution.
Basically Carleton seems to want to prevail on this. Seriously, Carleton, you've made your point times ten.
I wonder if this forum does as much to chase away people interested in track racing as it does to encourage them. Please give that some consideration. It's easy to become a bunch of "old salts" who have a lot of negatives but few positives.

carleton

There is no "in crowd". Your words show up just like mine on the screen for everyone to read and evaluate.

Of all of the track forums I've seen (fixed gear fever, FB: Track Sprinting), this is probably the least likely forum to run off new riders. The Redit group hasn't really taken off after a few years.

I admit that I do become adamant about certain points, but I'm a huge proponent of the sport. This forum was all but dead a couple of years ago. The reason you see so many posts and threads by me is an attempt to keep the conversation alive here and not lose it to FB (and the d*ck pics therin)

This is true. But, I'd rather err on the side of caution when there is a safety concern being discussed.

I'm pretty sure that fox can ride circles around me and she's obviously bitten by the track bug. But, I also know how people can have a bad mishap on the track (or road) and never compete again.

I mean, how long are we talking? A few weeks at best? It's the end of the season. Masters and Elite Nationals is over. Masters Worlds is left, and that *should* only be experienced people (not sure if she's old enough either). It would have been better if she got bitten by the bug back in April and by now, she'd probably be tired of racing for a while. But, there is no need to rush this. If she's that fast now, she'll be that fast next year, too, and for many years to come. I don't gain or lose anything by if she races in any category. We'll likely never be on the same track together.

I'm OK being the bad guy here. I do it all day at work. I can take it


...I'll also explain very clearly my point of view.

southernfox

Y'all seem *super* convinced I'm going to jump into anything other than C races for the next 6mo. Not sure why.

TDinBristol

All points fair - no doubt you are a proponent, I've seen that. I've learned a lot on this forum, which is why I come back. And agreed on the Facebook thing, where that particular Australian fellow seems to conflate male anatomy with riding a 60X12. I'm reacting to watching a (presumably) young new rider enter the conversation, and at no point exhibit any arrogance, recklessness or rudeness, and on on a succession of posts be treated somewhat more roughly.

As someone less involved in the forum, I'd urge the regulars to consider tone just a bit. It's great when people drop knowledge, but at times it comes down like anvils. Mentorship is a wonderful thing, but to grow the sport it needs to be an open circle (no pun intended). Quinn referred to track cycling as "a subculture within a subculture" (with lifting being a subculture within those). And remember that the marginal riders also can be the fans who support the sport in other ways.

carleton

Really?...not sure why?

One would figure that you wouldn't bother to do that if you weren't planning on using it

Every forum has trolls. It gets bad when there is no moderation. The fact that each serious thread on FB is derailed by the 4th or 5th comment is a function of how active (or not) the moderator is. Silence is consent.

Sure, it's entertaining (for a few), but the signal/noise ratio is really, really low.

Fixed Gear Fever had a really high signal/noise ratio...but it also had a "bro culture" that ran off a lot of new racers asking newbie questions.

I make it a point to try to help newbies by saying, "Go to this thread (with a link) and many of your questions will be covered there and feel free to ask more." as opposed to, "I ALREADY ANSWERED THAT YEARS AGO. SEARCH!!" (which a certain prolific FGF member would post), mainly because the newbie will not know what was discussed a year ago, they will not know what to search for, and most importantly, opinions change and keeping discussions active allows us to change our opinions and learn more.

I've changed my opinion on lots of things (power Meters, steel frames, um....) ...OK just those 2 things But you get my point. I also have opinions about tires and gearing and I started threads on both asking for new information to determine if I needed to rethink my position on them.



That's a good point. I'll keep that in mind (seriously).

gl98115

I've never raced on a 250m track, so I can't answer your question. But I did race Cat 4 the previous two seasons on a 400m track and made it a point not to sprint shoulder to shoulder with sketchy riders.

gl98115

Reading comprehension and logical thinking isn't a requirement on the internet (and apparently in American society these days). Good luck with your classes and races this season. Most people at the track are helpful and friendly.

Divebrian

I don't do mass start races unless it is a fun training race and most times I will drop out before the last few laps. Why you ask? Because I have found too many people that will take you out (or make a move that requires crash avoidance) without a second thought just so they can come in a place or two higher in a meaningless race. Others may take you out without realizing they are doing it...don't know which is worse, the ones that know better and don't care or the ones that don't realize they are doing it.

carleton

Don't be so hard on yourself

bitingduck

Women's Track fields limited to 1/2 are still pretty rare. For the most part it's still true that if you're a woman and can afford a license you're racing with the 1s or will be after a few races. It's bad for beginners, but an experienced road 1 should be fine in just about any women's mass start field - unless you're at Nats there will be a bunch of 3s anyway.


She'll be able to race men's 3s, where she'll likely be just fine. She can also race men's 2, which will likely actually be safer and where she might learn more good habits because the other riders will do fewer dumb things, will be more able to compensate for her inexperience, and probably do a better job telling her what she did right or wrong.

bitingduck

I've essentially let women do exactly that (there was one fewer category at the time) after giving someone a 35 minute intro talk and watching them ride solo for 20 laps. I have no idea who she is, but some local and USAC people certainly are comfortable with her upgrade- the local track association tends to get polled about these things and IIRC, to jump to 2 you need a recommendation from an elite coach, as well.

bitingduck

Anybody in a P/1/2 race will have evaluated her within a couple laps, if not earlier (part of why VSC race day accelerated class puts new riders on the track for 20 laps right before racing starts) and be able to figure out her experience and basic racing style pretty quickly (assuming they don't already know her anyway).

I really expect that she'll be just fine and will end up racing in fields where she'll be able to learn track skills the fastest.

brawlo

My 2c worth is that it certainly doesn't depend on what category they come from. I rode road a lot and must say I feel very safe around MOST of the high ranked road riders I've had the experience of riding with. Riding tight pacelines at high speeds on road sure as hell teaches you a thing or 2 about being a confident bike handler. I don't know about where everyone else rides, but where I ride, if you can't cut the mustard or your riding is a bit sketchy, then you are politely (and not so politely if the hint doesn't sink in) told to go sit on the back or leave all together. I know road and track riders with a lot of experience that I certainly don't like to rub shoulders with. I know a certain old masters rider that purposely rides sketchy to make riders feel they have to go high around him (I've trained with the guy and he can ride as straight as anyone).

I also know a former world champ masters woman who literally freaks out from time to time in bunch scenarios, but has held records and WCs in individual disciplines and national titles in bunch racing. She has the idea that if she stays in front she can't get taken out. Not a bad philosophy if you're strong enough to do it

SyntaxMonstr

That's the only way I've been able to feel at ease while racing in Pakistan, on both the road and track.

tobukog

A safe rider on the track is a safe rider and I'll leave it up to Kyle Knott and the staff at Rock Hill to make sure that she's fine and gets enough practice to race the appropriate races. Honestly, some of the fastest riders do some pretty sketchy stuff -- I was watching the Nationals stream and a ex-National Champ got a warning for dangerous riding in a sprint. The announcer then came back on telling everyone it doesn't mean that he's dangerous or it was intentional. Whatever, I've seen him chop and hook enough to know that I really don't want to be near him.

One thing to understand is that every track has it's own protocol, and it always amuses me that riders often think that the local protocol is what's followed everywhere else and that it's THE PROTOCOL. I've seen tracks where all the warm up is done at the Stayers line. I've seen some where the majority is done in the sprinters lane with only the slowest traffic up above. I've seen some where exits are on both straights. I've seen some only on turn 3. I've seen some where you get yelled at for passing in front of the Judges stand in the infield. I've seen some where you MUST pass in front of the judges stand to get on the track. I've been in places where you MUST announce if you are swinging off the front.

I think it's important to provide good firm instruction and rules of the track, but it is a little bothersome when the local track boss puffs out his chest and pretends that his rules are the only correct rules of track racing.

topflightpro

I was practicing standing starts last night. I was working in a large parking lot near my house with a slight incline. I didn't have a holder, so I was working off track standing.

Anyway, I noticed when I did them that I tended to hold my breath as I got going. I tend to do it when lifting hard too, but it seemed like a bad idea to be doing that when starting a Kilo - no reason to put me into a minor oxygen deficit. I started to work on just making sure I was breathing during the effort, which was an interesting challenge.

Any of you have that issue?