kbarch

Absolutely. Even when "easiness" is looked at only in terms of energy, how "beat up" you feel is a factor of HOW the energy is being expended

kbarch

And I hope we can all agree that merely having or looking at a power meter won't make you stronger or faster.

woodcraft

All right, fine.

I found a local segment similar to Tomato Coupes, & a few on the leaderboard were just over 300w,

then looked at another hill that I do all the time- .9 mile, 373', & see 2 over 200w (16,000 Strava entries). Edit: 16,000 individuals

There are some higher numbers, but just including those w/ actual PMs.

tomato coupe

I think you're erroneously trying to support a thesis that "riders can't pedal with significant power on descents" by citing examples of riders who chose not to pedal with significant power on descents.

WhyFi

Segment links, please. I'm mean, what are we talking about, here? If this is a straight shot, this type of drop has got to put you at ~40mph coasting in the drops.

woodcraft

The last example has over 100,000 Strava entries. That must include those choosing to pedal hard.

woodcraft

Yes, I generally go 35mph+ in a tuck. There's often wind assist.

https://www.strava.com/segments/6317488?filter=overall

HTupolev

Woodcraft did specify 8+% gradient.

rubiksoval

What are you even going on about? Are you trying to convince me or something?

I've told you the facts. If you want to do all this investigation because you simply can't cope with them, whatever. It's a really weird thing to post replies to three different people asserting that they're making stuff up.

Strange, dude. Just strange.

WhyFi

Oh?

OBoile

I just finished reading an excellent book called Endure: Mind, Body, and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance by Alex Hutchinson which discusses the perception of effort in great detail.

No, 250 watts will not always feel the same. It will feel harder if you aren't warmed up. It will feel easier over the last few hundred meters of your ride than it would in the middle (assuming a steady effort). It will feel harder on a hot day, even if you aren't close to over heating. The mind has a powerful effect on performance and perceived effort that we don't fully understand at this point. I have no doubt that something like a head wind could mess with this.

tomato coupe

All you've discovered is that most riders coast on descents, not that they can't generate power on descents.

In 2 minutes I came up with 5 more examples to refute your thesis. I did a race on Saturday that had a downhill section of approximately 1 mile at 2%, that was repeated 5 times. One of my teammates was on the front of the peloton for these descents, so I pulled up his data. I will only post one, but his average power on the five descents was: 240W, 337W, 344W, 306W, and 230W.

(A couple of other notes: this was only a CAT 4/5 race and his 344W average included a brief section where he coasted.)

Cobb Lake.jpg

P.S. As an aside; if you ever had any doubts on the effectiveness of staying out of the wind, on the first descent where he averaged 240 W on the front, I averaged 87 W as fourth or fifth wheel.

woodcraft

I started out questioning kbarch's assumption that he was doing 250w downhill ( Yee-hah),

and also questioned your assertion that you can do 300w down any hill that you don't have to stop or turn on.

Maybe you live someplace pretty flat.

My point is that it's harder to generate high power when gravity is doing much of the work.

DaveLeeNC

I do not see why that would be true other than (maybe) the speeds and your gearing are such that you cannot pedal at your optimum cadence under those downhill conditions.

dave

kbarch

With steep enough or long enough grades, one quickly runs out of resistance. On short rollers or slight grades one can usually keep pushing without gravity taking over, but on more continuous and steeper grades, if gravity and a little bit of aero action are enough to get one up to 45 mph, even 120 rpm on a 53/11 will be soft-pedaling.

woodcraft

I got on the rollers. In high gear could put out 250w or a bit more for short time,

but in low gear, only about 50w.

At a certain point you only have the resistance of you legs turning so you cannot put out much power at any cadence.

DaveLeeNC

Then I guess we all agree that it is an issue of gearing.

dave

woodcraft

No, we don't.

kbarch

Only theoretically, and only at the beginning of a descent. Practically speaking, no one rides around with a big enough chain ring to really power down significant grades, and most of the time big downhills aren't straight enough to permit it anyhow. But even with a bigger chain ring, one can only crank out some power to accelerate at the beginning of a big a downhill; once a speed has been attained, gravity is sufficient to overcome all the resistance, leaving one with nothing to work against until the grade starts to level off. Even a 60t chain ring won't give one anything to really work against once one has gotten up to about 80 kph; it would be everything one could do just to soft pedal, and even 140 rpm wouldn't show much on the power meter.

WhyFi

What? No. If you have the gears, you can pedal and add to your speed, it's just that the power isn't going to go very far - the difference between coasting and adding 250w will be an additional 2-3mph when in the 40mph range.

DaveLeeNC

That isn't how it works - gravity is NOT sufficient to "overcome all the resistance" at any speed. Aerodynamic drag (wind resistance) goes up as the square of the velocity. So putting out a constant 250 watts in a good tuck going down a long 10% grade, you can get close to 80 kph. Stop pedaling and you will slow down maybe 6 kph. Start putting out 250 watts and you will feel resistance in the pedals and you will speed up until you get back to that same roughly 80 kph and you will need to keep putting out that level of power or you will slow down again.

If you happen to be on Zwift (if you have 'a real power meter') it would be a pretty simple experiment to run - not so easy in 'the real world'.

dave

kbarch

At 40 mph, yes, most riders can add some speed - typically a lot if conditions and nerves allow. But above a certain speed, the only time there's anything to work against is when conditions change - grade levels a bit, a headwind picks up or one assumes a less aero position, etc. My point was that there IS such a thing as "spinning out." It's much faster than most riders will give themselves credit for, but whatever gears you have, once you've got yourself going as fast as your legs can spin, gravity will keep you going that fast. On a big descent, as fast as you can spin will eventually be mere soft-pedaling - little or now power through the drivetrain.

WhyFi

How many times does "if you have the gears" need to be said, and by how many people?

denvertrout

I have no difficulty maintaining 250 watts on a downhill. Of course I can choose to not work and coast or choose to maintain my power output. My SST training rides at 45-60 minutes result in varied terrain in that time, uphill, downhill and flat. Power is maintained in the same range regardless of terrain. Speed changes, HR consistent, power consistent. Not a big deal.

woodcraft

250w at 50 mph & >130rpm in a tuck. Yee-Hah!