cyccommute 

If you are painting a bike, masking is a necessary evil. But you should need to mask the bike to lubricate it. You are making life much harder than it needs to be.

This bike has around 1500 miles on the chain. I’m estimating because I don’t keep strict records on my chains but it has been on there for months of summer and winter riding. The drivetrain wasn’t cleaned for the picture and hasn’t been cleaned since I put the chain on the bike. I expect to get 1500 to 2000 more miles on the chain riding in conditions for which the bike was designed. I also will not clean the chain until I change it.
The bike had also just returned from 2 trips to an area where the sand was deep enough that it poured like water from my shoes



This is also typical of the regions I ride this bike in regularly. Lots and lots and lots of sand, dirt, and, yes, cow dung. All without fenders because fenders get in the way when mountain biking.



If I used ATF like you are suggesting, I’d be cleaning daily. I’ve got better things to do.

Bikes do not need lots and lots of oil to run well and shift smoothly. Bikes also don’t need to be covered in grease and muck from the lubrication. I likely get just as much mileage out of my chains...a consumable item, by the way...as you do without all the fuss.

Flip Flop Rider

did not read responses but I'm a minimalist when it comes to cleaning the drive train

1. flat head screw drive and scrape the jockey wheels, then take a rag with de-greaser and run the jockey wheels through it

2. spray the cassette with de-greaser then use strips of cloth to "floss" the cassette. Doesn't have to be perfect

3. spray de-greaser on front ring and wipe dry

4. take a rag with de-greaser on it and run the chain through it for a while, then dry the chain as best I can

5. re-lube with chain-L then wipe off the excess

ride, and wipe of the excess again, that's it

cyccommute 

Where do people come up with the stuff? Citric acid will do not a thing to grease and oil. Any compound that is as soluble in water as citric acid is will not dissolve nonpolar compounds. If you look at the link, under “Properties/Solubility”, you’ll see that citric acid is insoluble in benzene and toluene. I wouldn’t be going too far out on a limb to say that it is insoluble in just about any oil derived from petroleum you might want to pick. Citric acid is a good chelating agent which is another indicator that it is a poor degreaser. Anything that reacts with metal ions does poorly with nonpolar materials.

The reason it works so well at descaling your kettle is because it is an acid and the salts in your kettle tend to be carbonates which react quite well with acids. Think baking soda and vinegar.

Perhaps you are thinking of limonene which is in citrus peel and is used in “citrus degreasers” but it is entirely different from citric acid. As a pure compound, it would be too expensive to use to clean chains (650 mL is about $20).

CargoDane

It works splendidly as a degreaser for the oils I have tried. Maybe not silicone based grease or teflon.
But it doesn't matter much, water and little bit of (actual) soap will remove most things.

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

woodcraft

This thread is hitting for the cycle!

cyccommute 

In a bit of an appeal to authority, I am a chemist by training and experience. 40 years of bench experience, to be precise. I know a whole lot about how to dissolve stuff that doesn’t want to dissolve.

Your Google search shows one hit for citric acid as a degreaser that is written by someone with a Bachelor of Science degree in public administration. It shows a whole bunch more hits saying basically what I’ve said above. “Citrus cleaners” aren’t “citric acid”. They are lemonene based and usually alkaline. Citric acid is highly acidic.

Vegetable oil is different from petroleum based oils but for this illustration, it is a good model. I’ll assume you are familiar with vinegar and oil for dressing salads. Mix up a batch and see how well the oil dissolves in the vinegar. The oil is nonpolar and the vinegar is polar. They don’t mix. You could substitute the citric acid for the vinegar and they still won’t mix. They are even less likely to mix because citric acid has 3 acid groups per molecule vs one for vinegar. That’s the reason that citric acid is a chelating agent...the 3 acid groups wrap around metals and trap them. It probably takes two citric acid groups to the do the job for most transition metals to get the proper number of electrons to share.

If you are adding soap...probably dish soap...that is doing far more then the citric acid.

I really am trying to be helpful here. People have these elaborate systems for chain cleaning where it can really be simple. Put the chain in about 250 mL (1/2 cup) of mineral spirits in a bottle (large mouth plastic bottles work), vigorously shake it for 30 seconds or until your arm gets tired. Pull it out and let it dry. That’s all that is needed. That’s all that the chain is worth when it comes to cleaning. If you have oil all over the bike, put a little on a rag and wipe away.

Then consider using a lubricant that doesn’t make a mess.

CargoDane

Fair enough. I'm good with being wrong. I usually use undiluted soap (as in "Not washing up liquid", but Bronner's etc.) to remove teflon or silicon or that sh... copper grease. It just takes a bunch and it takes an immense amount of water to rinse afterwards.

Maelochs

Well, obviously he was suggesting you use a much more manageable Rag instead of a Rug to clean the chain.

I can see where there is confusion. You start off (thus the first impression, which sticks most deeply and sets the tone) by saying use a Lot of ATF.

You also say,

I have never tried ATF as a chain lube. I can say that the method you suggest doesn't sound like it is necessarily "The Best."

I use little citrus cleaner or mineral spirits on a rag (I use old dish scrubbers.) I grab the chain, pedal backwards, and the combination of friction and solvent does the job.

It is a lot easier to control and basically nothing sprays nothing onto anything. I physically scrub the chain while the solvents hopefully ooze in and dissolve old grease and such inside the rollers.

By far the better solution was suggested by @cyccommute: put the chain is a small container with mineral spirits of citrus cleaner and shake. I use the dish scrubber for quick cleanup and only remove the chain every couple weeks or whatever---basically as needed or if I haven't done it in a while. Because I rotate through different bikes it is hard to track maintenance---i do it as needed.

Since I use quick links, taking the chain off is not an issue (unless I drop the quick link.) However, it is Imperative whenever using Any solvent on a chain, to let it dry completely---overnight at least---or the solvent will displace or dilute the lube.

One way around this is to clean with light oil (much as you use ATF) except I don't use so much that I need to erect spray controls. Particularly if the chain needs a serious cleaning but I don't notice it until I am about to head out, the oil method works well.

People also tell me that it is best to oil a chain at might and not to wipe off the excess until the next morning, to give the oil time to seep in between the pins and rollers. No clue how true this is, but if I remember, i do this.

jay4usc

Convert to a wax base lube such as Squirt

Maelochs

A person who has only been cycling for six months is very dedicated if s/he has won out enough chains to know which treatment provides greater longevity.

As with most things BF, the best advice is "Lighten up."


"It's only life, after all."

Mulberry20

Or Smoove. Wax based lubes are superior in every way. They are more difficult to clean though and require a two step process of citrus cleaner then alcohol. Smoove is particularly tenacious as far as wax lubes go.

cyccommute 

In your description, you say that you pedal backward rapidly to fling the oil off. Flinging oil means it goes everywhere. There are far better ways of cleaning that don’t involve any flinging at all.

Yes. My bike is cleaner because I don’t use oil. There’s no oil for the dirt to get trapped on so it doesn’t stick to the frame or drivetrain and thus stays cleaner. That bike is also my winter bike so it sees a fair amount of slop in the winter months. It still stays clean.

As for needing oil in wet conditions, that’s a misconception most people have. Yes, you drivetrain might seem better lubricated but that’s a misconception. The oil mixes with water and separates out in the chain just like oil and water usually does. The water is trapped against the metal with the oil sitting on top. It does the same damage as if the chain weren’t lubricated or if a wax lubricant were used. It’s just muffled by the oil.



Your description indicates that you have a whole lot of oil on the drivetrain. You are using it as a solvent so you need a lot. You even say “Apply liberal (lotso) amounts of ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) on the drivetrain (chain and derailleur)” and “...backpedal fast to fling away excess ATF and finally wipe off excess ATF with rug from the chain and derailleurs...”. That’s a lot of oil. And, as with most oil lubricants, there is a constant drip of oil from the chain that makes it a maintenance nightmare in my opinion. That’s for everyone, not just you.

I’ve used oil in the past. I work on bikes all the time that are lubricated with oil. I even used Phil Tenacious Oil in the past that is similar or perhaps a bit more viscous than ATF...it’s thick enough that the oil strings between the chain and the jockey wheel when you pedal backwards. I hated the constant cleaning that oil required and found a way that requires a lot less work.

jay4usc

You only have to perform the deep cleaning once and after that I only wipe it with a rag before adding more. I add once a week which is when I reach 100 miles and there’s very little dirt when I wipe it down.

Moisture

Maelochs

I got my BB rehauled today at the local bikehub. The guy said it looked pretty rough inside.

I now got it shifting into second gear. The bike feels smooth and fast. No more wobble..

Pratt

Many good ideas here, and conflicting opinions. One can't help but notice that contributors to threads on riding in wet weather are concerned/convinced that an hour of rainwater will remove almost any lube from a chain.

shelbyfv

Really?

GlennR

Not reading all the posts and there seems to be some attitude.

For a filthy bike, use a garden hose with a very light spray. Add a bucket with warm water, some Dawn dish soap and a sponge. Add a few stiff brushes for the cassette and chainrings and a toothbrush for the jockey wheels. Dry the bike and then work on spots you missed. If the jockey wheels are binding, remove them and service the bearings. Apply the "correct" lubricants to the chain and derailleurs.

I have 2 bikes, a rather expensive road bike with Sram Red eTap and a less expensive bike with Sram Rival 1x which is my foul weather / winter bike.

I don't ride my expensive bike in the rain, but it does get filthy riding on wet roads so I do have to clean it after a wet ride.

There are a gazillion videos on Youtube on cleaning ans service a bike.

shelbyfv

I'm certainly no "elite" but I'd guess most judgements of credibility here are made based on posting history.

Maelochs

"Lighten up" means, Take things less seriously.

This is Bike Forums. people will argue if you say a bicycle has two wheels. Peole will ridicule you no matter what you say, because of their personal issues.

The key, I have learned after thousands of argumentative posts and a few bans from the moderators, is to not take other people too seriously, and to not take myself too seriously.

You've seen the cartoon of the guy up at three a.m., exhausted but frantically typing, telling his wife he can't go to bed yet because "Someone was wrong on the Internet!!!" ?

It's like that. Don't try to seek truth, don't try to defend your honor, don't try to win every debate. Some people will argu for as long as you will ... and you can't complain, because you are matching them post for post.

The rest of us find it sort of amusing sometimes,.

Yeah, take it lightly---Don't Giv eit Any Importance. Be able to walk away from a thread even if you don't think you have "won." You have to figure people will see what you wrote, and if one person is stuck on one word or sentence ... everyone else is reading it too. And not everyone else is arguing. Maybe they see it as you meant it ... maybe they are taking it lightly.
Now you are boing controlled by some guy who interpreted one of your posts differently than you meant it. Could have been a simple communication error, and now it is a huge emotional issue.

Dude, it's an internet message board. You don't have to challenge the guy to a duel. You can laugh and walk away.

"Dissapointing" is when others see a smart person keep typing into a thread which has gone comically and then tragically off-track, and not catch on that it is a huge waste of time.

If you "take offense" at every tiny disagreement, you will wate your life fighting pointless battles. I say this as a person who has already wasted way too much of his life fighting pointless battles online .... you Can, if you want to .... but why would you want to?

The guy you are fighting with might be one of your best buddies in real life, or might be someone you will never meet ever. Either way .... what's the point of bickering online? Say your piece and if people don't want to listen, drop it.

That is what I mean by "Lighten up."

You know what's a good plan? Before you type your next "defense of honor ' post to whomever ... go out and put 20 quick miles on your bicycle. You will (Hopefully) have a whole new and much better perspective when you get back.

cyccommute 

Just about anyone who uses oil based lubricants “rides with their bike smudged with oil”. That’s the reason that people have to clean their bikes and drivetrains all the time. I’ve pointed out that I don’t clean my drivetrains ever. Could there be a correlation?

I didn’t forget the newspaper. The fact that you have to use newpaper to keep oil off the rim suggest that you are flinging oil all over everywhere. If you weren’t flinging oil everywhere, you wouldn’t need the paper. I can clean and lubricate a chain...even with oil...and not have to mask the wheel to keep the oil off of it.

The last time I checked the chain is a loop. If you are spinning it fast enough to “fling oil off the chain”, you are flinging it off the chainring as well. That means upward because of the whole “loop” thing.

Your reasoning makes no sense. You are masking the wheel to prevent oil getting on it but you aren’t getting oil everywhere. Why are you using the paper then?

Oil is a liquid and it flows. If you have enough oil to lubricate, you have enough oil to flow due to gravity. Nearly every person who has described using oil for chain lube on the forums has described wiping off oil before or after a ride. That is oil that is flowing under gravity. Once the oil is gone, you add more which starts the whole process over again.

I did read all of your procedure. I just find it to be too involved and too messy. ATF isn’t an all-in-one solvent/lubricant. If nothing else, dilute it a little with mineral spirits (or equivalent). The mineral spirits will do the job as a solvent and the ATF will stick around after the mineral spirits evaporates. You can then dispense with the masking. On the plus side, your ATF will last longer.

I really am trying to be helpful here. I used to lubricate with oil and had to deal with the constant cleaning. I went a different way about 20 years ago and found that I didn’t have to clean all the time. My chains last as long as most people claim theirs last so I don’t see a downside. If I got significantly less mileage out of my chains, I’d put up with the mess.

My career has been developing processes and procedures for chemical reactions and analysis. I try to simply everything as much as I can. When I read a procedure, I try to understand why someone is doing a step but if I find that I can cut out that step without having an effect on the results, I will cut the step. If someone finds a superfluous step in my procedures and can show that it doesn’t affect the results, I’ll cut out the step as well.

Any procedure should be constantly evaluated for any steps that can be cut out. If you can lube your chain without masking, isn’t that better? If you can lube and clean your chain in less than 10 minutes, isn’t that better than taking hours? Chains are cheap. Nothing you can do to them are going to make them last much longer than the average. If doing elaborate procedures doesn’t provide better results and/or results in more work, why do them?

woodcraft

I've heard that pissing on your drivetrain is good to cut the grease.

Maelochs

The chain-lube fanatics are scouring the internet for clues to your whereabouts. Don't be surprised to wake up one night with a flaming bottle of Tri-Flo on your front lawn.

I wax some of my chains (some bikes) but oil others .... and I have tried a ton of different products. Not sure how wax works with water---everyone claims it doesn't---but on my dry bikes, wax is the way for me. But one of your posts has me wondering, "Why wouldn't wax work in wet conditions?

commo_soulja

I have a lot of bikes, mostly mountain bikes, in my garage and I've developed a method of cleaning them efficiently and without too much hassle. Living in an apartment complex I've bought a portable spray washer that hold 5 gallons and has a spray strong enough to dislodge caked on much without too much pressure on delicate bike parts. Add in some Muck Off pink cleaner and a long handled soft bristle brush I can wash a muddy mountain bike is less than 10 minutes not including drying. Airdry and relube. Done and done.

If I ride in some truly muddy and wet conditions, I have full coverage fenders with greatly reduce the bike and myself getting wet and dirty.

Maelochs

I have to disagree here. The only oil which matters is INSIDE the chain--in the rollers and pins. The stuff Outside the chain is excess, and only serves to attract abrasive grit which destroys not just chains but also cogs and chain rings.

I don't know who told you not to wipe your chain, but they gave you very bad advice.

When you are done lubing the chain, the outside should have Zero oil on it.

Yeah, fifty years of cycling and talking with cyclists, and no one has ever told me that. And my own experience belies it as well. A dirty chain carries that dirt---sticky bits of grit in grease---to every part of the bike it touches. You are essentially turning your chain into sandpaper and sanding the parts of your drive train.

I don't care if you believe me. You are free to do what you want and I am fine with it. But ask yourself, in a couple weeks, when you have stopped caring about this thread and aren't trying to "win" an internet debate---how can dragging an abrasive chain over you cogs and chain rings not be more abrasive than rolling a clean chain over them?

I want my bike parts to last a long time. Now that I am in sort of forced retirement, every single expenditure matters. if I have to replace cassettes more frequently, and with prices, particularly for Shimano, going up as they are, then cycling starts to become too expensive a hobby. So I make an effort to keep my stuff healthy.

As I say, you are totally free to do whatever you like with your stuff.

cyccommute 

I’ve used wax lubricants (solvent based) in wet conditions while on tour and during rain even here in the dry West...a lot of our water falls in brief but very intense doses. I also use wax based lubricants in winter conditions. People are under the (very) mistaken impression that wax “washes off”. You could put wax in water and mix it with a 150 horsepower Evenrude and it would never mix with water. Oil doesn’t mix with water nor does it “wash off”. Wax is solid oil with even less affinity for water.

Wax doesn’t flow back into gaps when it is squeezed out which is why chain squeak after rain. But while oil flows, it doesn’t mean the same damage isn’t caused by water when wax is used. It just masks the sound.

And, yea, I’m expecting flaming Triflow any day. Thankfully it’s tough to ignite.