SlvrDragon50

Alright. So I discovered that the ridiculous pain in my butt was because my saddle slipped to +5 degrees, set it back down to 0 degrees, and it felt much better.

Here's a video from today, I tried to do the no arm biking and you can see my cadence pick up immediately, and I sort of collapse onto the bar. Also some normal and slow cadence biking: https://vimeo.com/414150927

1. My right foot is a bit numb after 30 minutes of riding. From what I've read, this might be due to my cleat still being too far forward. It does feel a little off compared to my left foot. I'll adjust it and try it again in 2 days.
2. I still feel like I am putting a ton of weight on the bars. If I try to put my forearms horizontal for the stem length test, I basically feel like the entire upper half of my body is being supported by my arms on the bars. Is that normal? There's definitely no way I can maintain this position without keeping my arms on the bars.

Carbonfiberboy 

You look totally normal to me, well within the variation we see in well-fitted cyclists. Do this test for KOPS, just to see where you are. With the wheels on, on a level surface, with the cranks horizontal, drop a plumb bob from the bony protrusion below your kneecap. If you have KOPS, the plumb bob will intersect the center of your pedal axle. Road cyclists find that being at or aft of KOPS by up to 2cm is good, being forward, not so good. I happen to be well balanced right at KOPS and that's fairly common but certainly not universal. You don't need a real plumb bob. A nut or some such on the end of a string will work.

Your saddle might be a little low. See if you can stop the video with your cranks aligned with the seat tube and measure your knee angle. 25° is usually best, up to 35° usually tolerable.

SlvrDragon50

Alright, just measured the angle with Kinovea, and I'm probably around 25-30 degrees. Hard to get an exact measurement without using markers.



I did another hour long endurance ride which was definitely tougher than other workouts, but I did have a lot more neck tension and a bit of pain in my right elbow. I do have a history of some tendonitis flare up in the elbow though, probably from tennis. However, the strain in my neck/shoulders made it tough to finish the ride.

At this point, I'm pretty happy with the saddle. I don't believe I can go any higher as the current positioning seemed like the limit for the heel-pedaling test. It is also feeling pretty comfortable.

I'm assuming that when you said the upper arm should make a 90 degree angle with the torso, that was with me holding the hoods, not the drops correct? If I hold the drops and I keep my forearms horizontal, my knees are basically hitting my chest. Based off the Kinovea measurements, I should actually get a longer stem, not what I expected at all. Any clue if this would relieve the neck tension I'm getting?

Lemond1985

I think you are pretty much "there", IMO, thanks to some very good coaching.

I would call that a professional fit, one you can ride in all day, and still stay comfortable.

Carbonfiberboy 

That's a very cool app you found. Never heard of it.

Yes, you're doing it right. Tan8° = .14. So you need more stem length = 0.14*(upper arm length in cm). Use a stem angle that you think will enable you to go hard in that hood/horizontal forearms position. Modern bikes are designed for riders to use this position as their aero position. Drops are now mostly used for descending, sprinting, technical riding, and just another hand position. Your experience in the drops is normal..

Saddle and butt position look good. Many riders underestimate what a comfortable reach really is. See some photos of top female riders here: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post12953035

Neck discomfort is common while getting used to the road position. Here's a thread with a good hint: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...discovery.html
Dumbbell work is also very useful, anything that activates the muscles around the neck: side raises, front raises, back raises, standing overhead presses. (youtube) You can use the same weight for all those, only 1 dumbbell needed, say 10-15 lbs., just do 3 sets of enough reps to tire you out.

I never had elbow pain from cycling. Pushups? Ibuprofen if nothing else works?

SlvrDragon50

My background is in kinematics analysis + biomechanics It's a free budget software that is pretty popular. If you have markers or wear longer clothing, you can have it track your joint angles throughout the entire motion. See here: https://www.kinovea.org/screencaps/f...ckingangle.mp4

Good to know that the neck discomfort is common. I have no clue what is supposed to feel normal or not so I'm just mentioning everything hah. I don't know why I never thought of just using some simple trig to calculate stem length/angle! I'll hunt down a cheap 110mm step to try out since I theoretically only need 5mm more.

I think the elbow pain might have been because I was putting so much weight on my arms, and I wonder if maybe I should consider narrower bars. I'll need to grab some video from the front. I read that a good test is that your wrists are inline with your elbows?

Carbonfiberboy 

That last is true, but I'm not sure bar width has much to do with anything. Maybe. One tries to keep one's elbows in to reduce frontal area, so then yes, hands directly in front of elbows would be best and therefore bar width . . .https://zizebikes.com/bike-fit-how-t...ndlebar-width/

In that Numb Hands comment I posted a link to, look at the photo of the Timex rider taken from the right. Examine her hand position. See how she's resting the side of the heel of her hand on the bar top, her thumb hooked over the top of the hood? That's a great long distance hand position.

I think you're there. Now there's just the riding . . .

Carbonfiberboy 

5mm just didn't sound right, so I did the math and that doesn't sound right either. OTOH, probably shouldn't go over 120mm, maybe try that.

SlvrDragon50

Ohh. Yea, I just realized that you can't use tangent for a non-right-angle triangle. Need to use law of sines or cosine. But it still doesn't seem right to me, I'm getting an increase of 3.3cm. My current stem is 100mm.

I found a Syntace F109 for pretty cheap, and I heard they run longer than claimed so I'll start off with a 110mm. I think it might just be too hard to get an accurate measurement without using markers since I'm just ballparking where my joints are, and differences of 2-3 degrees are quite large.

I believe my hand positioning is pretty similar to the TIMEX rider, sometimes anyways. I find that I am changing hand positioning and body positioning a lot after about 30 minutes. I think this will just improve with time as I get more experience.

But this does sound like a longer stem will solve my remaining problems. I'll admit my core is pretty weak. Whenever I squat or deadlift, I always feel that my core is my limiting factor.

Lemond1985

A one or two minute plank, done regularly, has been the only core exercise I've needed. It does an excellent job of mimicking the racing position, and sometimes I hear my back cracking slightly re-aligning itself.

SlvrDragon50

Got my Zipp Service Course SL seatpost installed... SOOOOO much easier to adjust compared to this Ritchey 2 Bolt. Anyways, I tried to get the saddle in the same position as the Ritchey, but I didn't really get a good idea of setback measure so I was only able to recreate the height. I did a brutal 45 minute climbing workout today, and it was much better in terms of shoulder pain/tightness. New stem should arrive this weekend, and then I'll see how that does! Also I impulse bought a Praxis Zayante crank, but it's also 172.5mm so that shouldn't change up the fit.

Road Fan

My theory is that you are falling forward because your seat is too far forward, and your center of gravity is ahead of the pedal center (aka the BB axis), I would

1. first loosen your seat rail bolts and slide you saddle as far back as it will go, and set it level.
2. tighten it all up, and get on the bike and try to pedal. You might have a long reach to the bars, but that's problem #2 . Saddle is number 1.
3. If your stability on the saddle improves, great. Regardless, do you know how to use "heel on pedal" to set your saddle height? If so, use that method to lower your saddle. Lowering is probably necessary because you moved it back.
4. If your pedaling feels more or less normal on the set-back saddle, now reach up the the bars and keep pedaling. If you lift your hands up off the bars gently and fall forward less, then you are on the right track - congratulations, good work!
5. If you still need to set it back farther, try. If you can't, you may need to find a saddle that can slide back farther, or a seatpost that can allow a saddle to slide back farther, or both.
6. At this time we are completely forgetting about KOPS, probably forever. It was never a rule, just a suggestion for a reference point. If you started there at some point in your riding career and you are now having these issues, then KOPS is not right for you. The reference point is not for you.
7. If you can get the saddle back far enough then do some longer pedalling starting with a level saddle. Now we are trying to find out if the saddle pressure pattern is optimum, or if you are going get little sores or irritations after 15 minutes. After these we will raise or lower your saddle nose just a bit at a time, and see if there needs to be additional corection to the saddle height.
8. Once you have made all these achievements, only make small changes to your fit, and make good meausrements of you contact points. You'll want to know in the future, how can I set back to my starting point.

I know I'm not offering these ideas at the beginning of your expressions of concerns. But I would ask that you try these things in the order given. These measures have worked for me to get significant improvement, every year when I return to cycling, for each of my bikes. At the moment I need to do some more road riding and see if it feels ok as I work up past the 10 mile round trip level. My experience is that as my distance increases, I have to make more small adjustments. The longest I've followed this process is to build up from incidental riding to going on a tour where I did two consecutive 60 mile days. That was also my most strenuous ride ever. So I can say this stuff works for me.

SlvrDragon50

Alright, I did a short 45 minute cadence drill ride today with the new stem. Some thoughts

1. I did not realize how much stiffer stems could get. This Syntace Force F109 stem is AWESOME. Don't feel any flex anymore when I'm on the bars, though I was doing mostly low power, high cadence biking today. I am interested to see how it does with climbing.
2. I definitely feel more comfortable with the 110mm stem, zero stress on my shoulder/neck. The stem was a bit shorter in height than the Ritchey 4-axis, and I had to use a spacer to push the handle bars up ~5mm is my guess.
   1. I felt a lot more pressure on my hands, but I think this was because I was doing high cadence drills which was just extra stress on my body
   2. I could never really get a comfortable position on the saddle, but again I think this was related to the cadence drills.
3. My butt wasn't feeling great. But again, cadence drills forced me to keep moving my pelvis around. I am wondering if maybe I should consider that I just don't like saddles with so little padding? I was wearing my shorts with thinner padding, but I figured I should last at least 15-20 minutes before starting to feel pain/hot spots. I don't believe it's a saddle angle issue as it is probably -1 to 0 degrees right now, and I can't see myself going any more negative. How do you decide when a saddle just doesn't work for you? I am considering trying out ISM's saddle demo program.

My Praxis cranks should come tomorrow if USPS is on time, and I'll try it all on a more rigorous ride this weekend.

Carbonfiberboy 

I know some people don't, but I also get hot spots on thinly padded saddles. I tried a Selle Italia TM Flow and took it off when it became apparent it wasn't going to get any better. Really painful. Now I'm using a Selle Italia SLR Boost Endurance Superflow. That's not a very padded saddle, either, but it's just perfect for me. I was also interested in the ISM program, but no shop that had it was convenient for me.

SlvrDragon50

Okay, I think I may take a gamble on an ISM saddle. Hearing great things about them, and $20 for a month long demo including shipping both ways isn't too bad. I have a local ISM dealer here, but they unfortunately don't have any demos Another perk is that I actually understand their naming scheme too I figure if they're popular with the triathletes, then they should be fairly comfortable too. Just took a browse on SLR Italia's site, and my saddle has 0/5 on its endurance rating... so that might make sense why my butt doesn't like it.

Carbonfiberboy 

Let us know how that goes, please.

Carbonfiberboy 

Selle SMP also has a test program, but only through stores AFAIK.

SlvrDragon50

Alright, lowered my seatpost again, and I've finally achieved like zero pressure on my hands/wrists. No real major complaints except a little bit of knee tenderness, but I think that's related to my cleat because it keeps coming loose and moving around. Upgrading the crank to the Praxisworks Zayante was absolutely worth the $100. Wish I did that instead of buying $40 worth of BB tools and $25 for a BB.

Question though, so it seems that the type of riding you do (staying in the same position, moving on the saddle for climbing, etc.) has a lot of impact on saddle choice. Or at least that's what ISM is hinting at with the different width or length saddles. The 1hr long ride I did today was in a seated position with no real climbing, around 90 cadence. I felt quite comfortable on the saddle until towards the end, but I did notice that it was only because I was able to really tilt my pelvis. I know if I were climbing and in a more upright position, I would have more hotspots. Is this poor technique or is this just suggesting it's not a great saddle for me? Almost getting close to a perfect fit, sooooo close!

Carbonfiberboy 

You're the only one who can tell what works for you. Over the years, I've given away a couple of boxes full of saddles which seemed like they worked and then didn't for various reasons. Saddles are tough. What do you like particularly about the Praxis?

SlvrDragon50

Gotcha okay. Sounds like I just need to try another saddle. No way to know if the saddle works for me if I never try another saddle

The Praxis is noticeably stiffer than my FSA Gossamer. I've heard a lot of people talk about how the Gossamer is soft and flexy, but it didn't really make sense to me how a metal could be soft and flexy. I found it much easier to do high resistance pedaling, especially when I stand up to pedal. I am kinda curious how the super stiff Rotors and other cranks feel now, but this is more than enough for me. With the stiffer stem and crankset, I am contemplating some stiffer handlebars too now, but I think my money needs to go towards the saddle first.

I think the only downside is that the bottom brackets are on the pricier side, but I've heard great things about Praxis so I'm okay with it. Plus it was $105 for the crankset and bottom bracket so I really got a steal on this.

Lemond1985

Regarding the knees, a quick rule of thumb is "pain in the front, saddle too low, pain in the back of the knee or hamstrings, saddle too high". This is assumes you are starting with a healthy knee.

Welcome to the world of bike adjustment. I'm constantly tweaking my position, which can change due to weight gain, weight loss, fitness gain, fitness loss, or even personal preference, or aerodynamics. Sounds like you're in the ball park though, excellent progress so far.

For me at least, there really is no end point, just small improvements here and there.

SlvrDragon50

Dang okay haha. I thought I was completely done messing with the saddle height finally! I'll raise it back up a little bit then for my next ride.

And then I'm gonna have to redo it all again when I get a new saddle

SlvrDragon50

Just got a new ISM Adama Full Gel Road which I believe is the PS1.1?

I need to mess around with positioning more as my thighs are rubbing against the saddle, but it does seem to be more comfortable than the previous saddle. Used my thinner padded shorts, and I didn't have an insane hotspot on my pelvis (which is still hurting from 2 days ago on the old saddle while wearing thicker padded shorts). I only did a shorter 30 minute "race" so I won't make too many claims about the saddle yet, but I am feeling optimistic about it.

SlvrDragon50

I'm consistently getting knee pain, but I can't raise my saddle any higher as my hips will start to bounce. So if the saddle is too low, I imagine I should be getting bilateral knee pain right? I think my issue is more related to tendonitis as my knee pain is always in my left knee.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah. Try these stretches every morning :https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post15372967