Carbon vs. aluminum rims: can you feel a difference?
#26
Optically Corrected
I’ve never ridden carbon rims but you sure can tell who is... they have a distinctive “ barrel rolling” type sound that I’ve never heard from alloy rims.
#27
Junior Member
If I understand your question, you’re wondering if there are differences beyond the ones you would control in a comparison test (ie the shape profiles, the weight etc). At the same time, you're aware that you can’t control all the variables because to create the point of comparison, you have to assume away the differences that would arise in order to make the comparison in the first place (eg. if same two shapes, then the durability would be different).
I have cited a web site that compares the materials and you might get the info you’re looking for : Aluminium vs carbon fiber? comparison of materials
I have cited a web site that compares the materials and you might get the info you’re looking for : Aluminium vs carbon fiber? comparison of materials
Likes For Jno:
#28
Banned
Trans Am race leader is now south of Missoula MT , maybe you can ask them as they all ride by..
front 993 miles along, rear most 171 in.
front 993 miles along, rear most 171 in.
#29
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times
in
254 Posts
This is very much the equivalent of "Ignoring all the advancements between the Wright Flyer and a 747, if a Wright Flyer were the same size and could fly just as far in the same comfort--which is better?"
Assuming two unequal things are magically made equal, like they never are o r ever can be--which is better?
#30
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
You can feel it in your wallet when you have to replace your scabbed up CF rims if you dont have disc brakes.
#31
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,328
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3898 Post(s)
Liked 4,836 Times
in
2,229 Posts
? Take it from some experts ?
Here are your 9 best fast road wheels for 2019. Only 2 are Al.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...e-wheels-2019/
and of course this is a 100% unbiased selection.
To save some reading: 2 from Shimano, 2 from Campy, 2 from Mavic, 1 Bontrager (Trek), 1 Roval (Specialized), 1 Zipp.
I wonder who advertizes with Cycling News?
edit: Avg price for these 9 wheelsets is $1800+. Lowest = $710; Highest = $3200; Median = $2000
@rydabent's got it right. Biggest 'feel' is in the wallet. Let your disposable income do the talking.
Personally, I try never to let my ass (which would be the body part most affected by wheel/tire choice) dictate decisions for the rest of my body. Except in saddle&shorts choices!
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...e-wheels-2019/
and of course this is a 100% unbiased selection.
To save some reading: 2 from Shimano, 2 from Campy, 2 from Mavic, 1 Bontrager (Trek), 1 Roval (Specialized), 1 Zipp.
I wonder who advertizes with Cycling News?
edit: Avg price for these 9 wheelsets is $1800+. Lowest = $710; Highest = $3200; Median = $2000
@rydabent's got it right. Biggest 'feel' is in the wallet. Let your disposable income do the talking.
Personally, I try never to let my ass (which would be the body part most affected by wheel/tire choice) dictate decisions for the rest of my body. Except in saddle&shorts choices!
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Last edited by Wildwood; 06-05-19 at 12:44 PM.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 646
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times
in
31 Posts
Carbon versus Alum
Let's say for the sake of argument everything is the same (weight, tires -- let's pick something cushie and road-insulating like 38mm Compass, hubs, bike, rider). The only difference is the composition of the rims. "Aero profile" is the same. Number of spokes is the same. Also, assume both have the same disc brakes, so we aren't talking about rim brake differences.
I recognize all of these assumptions are a bit artificial and might be hard to realize, but the point is if you could control for everything else, could you feel a difference with carbon rims due simply to their composition? If so, how would you describe the difference in ride quality?
I recognize all of these assumptions are a bit artificial and might be hard to realize, but the point is if you could control for everything else, could you feel a difference with carbon rims due simply to their composition? If so, how would you describe the difference in ride quality?
Likes For Craptacular8:
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,374
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2483 Post(s)
Liked 2,955 Times
in
1,678 Posts
I remember how different my Bianchi Specialissima felt when I replaced a Campy Record/Mavic MA4 wheel set with a set of Hi-E wheels---their lightest set, with riveted ultra-thin-wall rims and their tiny aluminum front skewer. It made the bike feel as top-heavy as a clown bike.
Likes For Trakhak:
#34
Senior Member
I have read aboutn 100x times on mtbr that riders can actually feel a difference between alu and crabon. and they all prefer crabon. its stiffer somehow.
for road use i'm sceptical. i cant even detecta a real difference between xc and dh rims. several 100g there. on the road that is.
for road use i'm sceptical. i cant even detecta a real difference between xc and dh rims. several 100g there. on the road that is.
#35
Occam's Rotor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
This is very much the equivalent of "Ignoring all the advancements between the Wright Flyer and a 747, if a Wright Flyer were the same size and could fly just as far in the same comfort--which is better?"
Assuming two unequal things are magically made equal, like they never are o r ever can be--which is better?
Assuming two unequal things are magically made equal, like they never are o r ever can be--which is better?
#36
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times
in
254 Posts
You can do much more, engineering wise, with CF with less mass. Further it isn't all about aerodynamic gains; haven't you wondered why CX racers use deep-section rims when they almost never are going fast enough for aerodynamics to really matter? Because deeper-rims shed mud better and don't get sucked in within mud as much; and CF means you can run deeper rims without mass penalty
#37
Occam's Rotor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
You can do much more, engineering wise, with CF with less mass. Further it isn't all about aerodynamic gains; haven't you wondered why CX racers use deep-section rims when they almost never are going fast enough for aerodynamics to really matter? Because deeper-rims shed mud better and don't get sucked in within mud as much; and CF means you can run deeper rims without mass penalty
The folks who feign that the question is impossible to answer are tacitly suggesting that there is no substantive difference.
OK, I have to give you some credit for inadvertantly answering my question: carbon lets you make pretty shapes, but doesn't directly affect ride quality.
Last edited by Cyclist0108; 06-05-19 at 06:25 PM.
#38
Senior Member
what the hell are you guys blabbering about? technical differences?? carbon looks cool. isn't that good enough now somehow?
#39
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 7
Bikes: 2019 Cervelo P3 & 2016 Specialized Tarmac Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Carbon vs Aluminum Feel
I just got my first set of carbon wheels and I think the carbons feel stiffer. Also, it seems in my first couple rides my braking distance has increased. I had read that would happen, especially in wet conditions.
It is kinda funny, when I notice these differences between carbon and aluminum, I always wonder if I'm really noticing it or if I'm just expecting to notice it. Okay, thats enough philosophy for this post
It is kinda funny, when I notice these differences between carbon and aluminum, I always wonder if I'm really noticing it or if I'm just expecting to notice it. Okay, thats enough philosophy for this post
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,249
Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma Olympiade, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 818 Times
in
421 Posts
You won't find aluminum vs carbon an exact duplicate wheel in shape. It just doesn't happen. My Culprit Croz Blade came with 55mm Token aero carbon rims, great aero properties, nice stiff ride, very light and responsive. But too crosswind sensitive. I got a deal on a set of Reynolds Assault carbon rims in a 41mm height. Nice and stiff, maybe not as aero, but equal to lower profile rims in cross wind sensitivity. The stiffness is what I appreciate. They roll right over road imperfections, rocks and debris that would knock my old lower profile aluminum Mavic rims offline. The tires are Gatorback 25s on both my carbon and aluminum rims. I can't compare on the same bike because the aluminum rims are rim brake and the carbon rims are disc specific. I don't trust rim brakes on carbon. Too many variables. Hard to compare oranges against apples. I love my carbon rims but for one 1/10 the cost, the aluminum rims work pretty well.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 727
Bikes: Current: 2016 Bianchi Volpe; 1973 Peugeot UO-8. Past: 1974 Fuji S-10-S with custom black Imron paint by Stinsman Racing of PA.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times
in
142 Posts
I originally though the OP was talking the "feel" of the wheel, not any aero benefits, but more along the line of vibration transmitted (or not), flex, rolling feel, etc..
FWIW, when we recently had out house renovated, the contactor has a hammer and a sledge hammer with carbon fiber composite handles. He also had the same head weight hammers in the fiberglass and some in hickory wood handles. After I did some test swings and nailing, it did 'feel' (to me) like the CF handles had a greater damping effect with the next being the fiberglass and the harshest being good old hickory. They were very expensive, but he swore that his fatigue level with the CF versions after a day of work was much less and his hands were not numb.
None of the hammers were aero... The carbon ones did have large decals touting their composition. He also never had one fail.
FWIW, when we recently had out house renovated, the contactor has a hammer and a sledge hammer with carbon fiber composite handles. He also had the same head weight hammers in the fiberglass and some in hickory wood handles. After I did some test swings and nailing, it did 'feel' (to me) like the CF handles had a greater damping effect with the next being the fiberglass and the harshest being good old hickory. They were very expensive, but he swore that his fatigue level with the CF versions after a day of work was much less and his hands were not numb.
None of the hammers were aero... The carbon ones did have large decals touting their composition. He also never had one fail.
Likes For Bill in VA:
#42
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,638
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4736 Post(s)
Liked 1,533 Times
in
1,004 Posts
Let's use specific examples. eg. how would the feel or riding characteristics differ between these 2 wheelsets. Leaving durability or robustness out of the question
https://www.lightbicycle.com/U-shape...ompatible.html
vs
https://www.bike24.com/p2306399.html?q=tune+35
https://www.lightbicycle.com/U-shape...ompatible.html
vs
https://www.bike24.com/p2306399.html?q=tune+35
Likes For Sy Reene:
#43
Occam's Rotor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 7,085
Bikes: Cervelo Prodigy
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 87 Times
in
67 Posts
I recognize all of these assumptions are a bit artificial and might be hard to realize, but the point is if you could control for everything else, could you feel a difference with carbon rims due simply to their composition? If so, how would you describe the difference in ride quality?
I might suggest that its the composite of all that to make my ride a "ride quality".
Thus, its not just about the speed or the perceived speed.
#45
Occam's Rotor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
#46
- Soli Deo Gloria -
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,779
Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
Mentioned: 235 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6844 Post(s)
Liked 736 Times
in
469 Posts
I reckon the inherent difference might be the same as with other components - allowing for some flex in desired direction while maintaining stiffness in others. The Zipp single wall MTB rims are specifically designed wit that in mind. https://www.zipp.com/wheels/3zero-moto-rim/
It is not something which can be easily quantified. Carbon wheels certainly feel different apart from aero, weight, number of spokes, etc. Bump absorption is different.
-Tim-
Likes For TimothyH:
#47
Senior Member
A good read about research and development of Zipp rims. Authoritative answers to many of the questions here. Along with good explanations for why facts don't much matter.
https://blog.silca.cc/road-to-roubai...lete-story-1-0
Many possible avenues for further development of aluminum rims have been thrown away because carbon. That is my editorial, not what the article above is talking about.
https://blog.silca.cc/road-to-roubai...lete-story-1-0
Many possible avenues for further development of aluminum rims have been thrown away because carbon. That is my editorial, not what the article above is talking about.
#48
- Soli Deo Gloria -
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,779
Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
Mentioned: 235 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6844 Post(s)
Liked 736 Times
in
469 Posts
A good read about research and development of Zipp rims. Authoritative answers to many of the questions here. Along with good explanations for why facts don't much matter.
https://blog.silca.cc/road-to-roubai...lete-story-1-0
Many possible avenues for further development of aluminum rims have been thrown away because carbon. That is my editorial, not what the article above is talking about.
https://blog.silca.cc/road-to-roubai...lete-story-1-0
Many possible avenues for further development of aluminum rims have been thrown away because carbon. That is my editorial, not what the article above is talking about.
That article was great!
The test plan was to have them ride various lines to see if they could break the wheels and also to try and determine the handling characteristic the riders were after.
Everyone should read it. Seriously, it is a good article and addresses the questions here.
-Tim-
Last edited by TimothyH; 06-06-19 at 08:13 PM.
#49
Senior Member
Do all aluminum rims ride the same? Can you tell one aluminum rim from another? Describe the difference. Quantify the difference. Good luck.
Many posters above praise the stiffness of carbon. Stiffness always explains everything good. In actual Instron testing recounted in article cited above Poertner discovered aluminum rimmed wheels were stiffer than carbon.
Try to separate wheel characteristics resultant from spoking as against wheel characteristics resultant from rim material. Can you do that? And put it in simple English? Devise a repeatable experiment that separates spoking characteristics from material characteristics.
One simple experiment anyone can do. Have a friend sit on a bicycle. Preferably a heavy friend. But also try with a light friend and note the differences. You also need a tension meter to perform this experiment. From reading wheel threads here I know that most hate tension meters with a passion but you will need one to perform the experiment. Check spoke tension of top spoke and bottom spoke. Also check spoke tension of spokes adjacent to bottom spoke. Repeat with a variety of wheels. After performing this experiment you should know that near 100% of everything you have ever read about wheels is not worthy of further consideration. Do the experiment and you will know something.
Many posters above praise the stiffness of carbon. Stiffness always explains everything good. In actual Instron testing recounted in article cited above Poertner discovered aluminum rimmed wheels were stiffer than carbon.
Try to separate wheel characteristics resultant from spoking as against wheel characteristics resultant from rim material. Can you do that? And put it in simple English? Devise a repeatable experiment that separates spoking characteristics from material characteristics.
One simple experiment anyone can do. Have a friend sit on a bicycle. Preferably a heavy friend. But also try with a light friend and note the differences. You also need a tension meter to perform this experiment. From reading wheel threads here I know that most hate tension meters with a passion but you will need one to perform the experiment. Check spoke tension of top spoke and bottom spoke. Also check spoke tension of spokes adjacent to bottom spoke. Repeat with a variety of wheels. After performing this experiment you should know that near 100% of everything you have ever read about wheels is not worthy of further consideration. Do the experiment and you will know something.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
maartendc
Road Cycling
43
03-18-19 06:58 AM
vinuneuro
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational)
44
03-29-18 10:18 PM
azza_333
General Cycling Discussion
13
02-16-16 07:42 PM