Speed Weaponry....
08-09-07, 01:32 PM
#51
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08-09-07, 02:26 PM
#52
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Tubulars are NOT hard to live with in the least... get some Pit Stop and carry it with you on rides. If you are really anal, put some Tufo sealant in your training tubulars in the beginning. (But, please don't use Tufo road tubulars)
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08-09-07, 05:54 PM
#54
Throw the stick!!!!
I was thinking about this thread when I was out riding earlier. It occured to me that when I run my Zipps I am going to have to change the calibration on my computer because the tires on them are 21's and on my other wheels I have 23's. Just out of curiousity, what size tires are on the Zipps that you borrowed from the shop? That could account for some of that speed increase.
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08-09-07, 06:15 PM
#55
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I like to be as fast as I can be; I like using nice equipment and I can afford it.
Realistically, I'm going to race 15-20 days a year. I'm going to ride 300+ days a year. My Tuesday and Saturday Group rides are essentially training races. Thus I train on Zipps because I want to do well on Tuesdays and Saturdays, and I want to enjoy riding nice equipment.
It's all relative to what you can or want to spend. I'd probably say that even racing on LEW's, or training on Lightweights is stupid. But it might not be to someone who has the $8,000 to burn.
On the other end of the spectrum, if you don't have $50 to spare, you might say that you should save your Pro Race2 tires for race day becasue they're too expensive to train on. It's all relative.
Realistically, I'm going to race 15-20 days a year. I'm going to ride 300+ days a year. My Tuesday and Saturday Group rides are essentially training races. Thus I train on Zipps because I want to do well on Tuesdays and Saturdays, and I want to enjoy riding nice equipment.
It's all relative to what you can or want to spend. I'd probably say that even racing on LEW's, or training on Lightweights is stupid. But it might not be to someone who has the $8,000 to burn.
On the other end of the spectrum, if you don't have $50 to spare, you might say that you should save your Pro Race2 tires for race day becasue they're too expensive to train on. It's all relative.
08-09-07, 06:27 PM
#56
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First, you have one of the nicest bikes I have seen. 
Second, i am assuming the shop that lent you them was sunrise tri. There is a sunrise tri that is local to me (but I am sure there is more then one) I am curious if it is the same place. Where are you located and where is that shop? Thanks
Second, i am assuming the shop that lent you them was sunrise tri. There is a sunrise tri that is local to me (but I am sure there is more then one) I am curious if it is the same place. Where are you located and where is that shop? Thanks
08-09-07, 10:10 PM
#57
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First, you have one of the nicest bikes I have seen.
Second, i am assuming the shop that lent you them was sunrise tri. There is a sunrise tri that is local to me (but I am sure there is more then one) I am curious if it is the same place. Where are you located and where is that shop? Thanks
Second, i am assuming the shop that lent you them was sunrise tri. There is a sunrise tri that is local to me (but I am sure there is more then one) I am curious if it is the same place. Where are you located and where is that shop? Thanks
Great people by the way.
Last edited by toneb; 08-09-07 at 10:31 PM.
08-09-07, 10:22 PM
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I was thinking about this thread when I was out riding earlier. It occured to me that when I run my Zipps I am going to have to change the calibration on my computer because the tires on them are 21's and on my other wheels I have 23's. Just out of curiousity, what size tires are on the Zipps that you borrowed from the shop? That could account for some of that speed increase.
08-09-07, 10:47 PM
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Your average speed is in the 17mph range and you want to put Zipps on your already expensive bike?
I thought cocaine was how silly affluent people wasted their money, but it appears that expensive bike stuff is now in fashion.
Yeah, go ahead and buy them. Hopefully I will see you on the road one day, so I can later brag to my wife about how I dropped some dude who had a bike worth four times mine.
I thought cocaine was how silly affluent people wasted their money, but it appears that expensive bike stuff is now in fashion.
Yeah, go ahead and buy them. Hopefully I will see you on the road one day, so I can later brag to my wife about how I dropped some dude who had a bike worth four times mine.
08-10-07, 03:44 AM
#60
Throw the stick!!!!
Unless you adjusted your computer to the new tire size (or have a garmin) that would account for a mph or so of your speed increase.
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08-10-07, 04:20 AM
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Most people seem to race on 303s--- but anyway.... have you ever been to a cat 5 race? I personally would feel like a jackass showing up for my very first race on a set of bling carbon wheels--- but whatever floats your boat. Nobody from my racing team would ever show up for club rides on carbon wheels, either.
Have you ever seen a shattered Zipp from a cat 5 crash in a road race? I saw some guy who was practically devastated over his crashed set... a young cat 5 guy.
I would wait until you are a cat 3 before opting for Zipps--- or any wheelset costing more than $600.
Finally, regardless of what Zinn has to say, if you have carbon rims, stick with tubulars. If you know how to glue, you won't lose a tire.
BTW- I increased my avg. speed by only riding with the wind.... and downhill. Works great for me. I easily avg. 25- 30 mph--- depending on where I ride.
Have you ever seen a shattered Zipp from a cat 5 crash in a road race? I saw some guy who was practically devastated over his crashed set... a young cat 5 guy.
I would wait until you are a cat 3 before opting for Zipps--- or any wheelset costing more than $600.
Finally, regardless of what Zinn has to say, if you have carbon rims, stick with tubulars. If you know how to glue, you won't lose a tire.
BTW- I increased my avg. speed by only riding with the wind.... and downhill. Works great for me. I easily avg. 25- 30 mph--- depending on where I ride.
08-10-07, 04:37 AM
#62
Peloton Shelter Dog
I have only seen 404s in the NY area. Can't recall EVER seeing 303s anywhere but on the web.
08-10-07, 04:45 AM
#63
Peloton Shelter Dog
They are mutually exclusive when you're only planning on spending $2000. You can't have both for that price, or for whatever you're paying for the Zipps. The point is that the money spent on the Zipps can be spent on other things that will be much more beneficial.
Secondly, the Zipps make your bike faster. A power meter assists you in making yourself faster. It's just stupid to train on Zipps. Yeah, I know you train on Zipps. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Plus, Zipps need to go fast. Zipps cruising by at 18 mph just looks stupid.
But if I were to actually deal with someone that's going to get some good use out of Zipps in the OP's position, I'd say go with the clinchers. The braking surface will last longer (and you're used to it), you don't know how to mount tubulars (and a poorly-mounted tubular isn't your friend), and you aren't racing.
Secondly, the Zipps make your bike faster. A power meter assists you in making yourself faster. It's just stupid to train on Zipps. Yeah, I know you train on Zipps. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Plus, Zipps need to go fast. Zipps cruising by at 18 mph just looks stupid.
But if I were to actually deal with someone that's going to get some good use out of Zipps in the OP's position, I'd say go with the clinchers. The braking surface will last longer (and you're used to it), you don't know how to mount tubulars (and a poorly-mounted tubular isn't your friend), and you aren't racing.
The only $1200 expenditure (that's what I paid for my 1 year old Zipp 404 tubulars with tires on eBay) that could have potentially made me faster MAY have been a power meter. And that's questionable, since to actually derive any benefit from a PM you are compelled to wrap your bike weenie brain around PM training techniques and software. That might entail enrolling in MIT for an undergrad degree. I graduated from college in 1980.
On the other hand the instant you bolt those 404's to your bicycle it makes it easier to put your nose in the wind @ 30mph when you're bridging (or trying to hang on, or going off the front, or climbing a steep grade, etc.). I know because I regularly switch back and forth between heavier clincher non-aero wheels (and they're relatively light Ksyrium ES wheels by the way, Zipps are way lighter/more aero) and the 404s. They do work. Can any of those dismissing the value of Zipps say that? Or are they talking through their bike weenie asses as usual?
Last edited by patentcad; 08-10-07 at 07:46 AM.
08-10-07, 06:02 AM
#64
Throw the stick!!!!
Most people seem to race on 303s--- but anyway.... have you ever been to a cat 5 race? I personally would feel like a jackass showing up for my very first race on a set of bling carbon wheels--- but whatever floats your boat. Nobody from my racing team would ever show up for club rides on carbon wheels, either.
Have you ever seen a shattered Zipp from a cat 5 crash in a road race? I saw some guy who was practically devastated over his crashed set... a young cat 5 guy.
I would wait until you are a cat 3 before opting for Zipps--- or any wheelset costing more than $600.
Finally, regardless of what Zinn has to say, if you have carbon rims, stick with tubulars. If you know how to glue, you won't lose a tire.
BTW- I increased my avg. speed by only riding with the wind.... and downhill. Works great for me. I easily avg. 25- 30 mph--- depending on where I ride.
Have you ever seen a shattered Zipp from a cat 5 crash in a road race? I saw some guy who was practically devastated over his crashed set... a young cat 5 guy.
I would wait until you are a cat 3 before opting for Zipps--- or any wheelset costing more than $600.
Finally, regardless of what Zinn has to say, if you have carbon rims, stick with tubulars. If you know how to glue, you won't lose a tire.
BTW- I increased my avg. speed by only riding with the wind.... and downhill. Works great for me. I easily avg. 25- 30 mph--- depending on where I ride.
Oh, and in this area (WV, OH, KY) it is rare to see 303's. Generally the only time I see people break those out is for climbing races. The 404's are by far the most common.
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08-10-07, 06:59 AM
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08-10-07, 07:01 AM
#66
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Good point. No need to make fun of them, since if they get dropped... well, it's pretty self-explanatory.
08-10-07, 07:01 AM
#67
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08-10-07, 07:02 AM
#68
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Wait, why would you need to re-config your computer if you switch from 23 to 22 tires? Doesn't the circumference stay the same? It's just the width changing.
08-10-07, 07:07 AM
#69
Throw the stick!!!!
700 x 25 - 2105
700 x 23 - 2097
700 x 20 - 2086
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08-10-07, 07:09 AM
#70
Throw the stick!!!!
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08-10-07, 07:11 AM
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Haha, well it's not really terrible to get dropped, if you're expecting or don't mind it. It can be frustrating though, and obviously some big spenders (there are always exceptions) might be embarrassed by being dropped if they expect huge results from their purchases alone.
08-10-07, 07:21 AM
#72
Throw the stick!!!!
Haha, well it's not really terrible to get dropped, if you're expecting or don't mind it. It can be frustrating though, and obviously some big spenders (there are always exceptions) might be embarrassed by being dropped if they expect huge results from their purchases alone.
I never think poorly of someone else that gets dropped though. They are having enough problems without needing hearing anything from someone else.
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08-10-07, 07:59 AM
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Zipps are definitely faster than conventional 32-spoke wheels. However, the difference really isn't all that much, and certainly rather insignificant if you're not racing (real or otherwise). To objectively assess this performance gain, may I direct you to Analytic cycling's breakaway analysis page.
Given a rider mass of 65kg (143lbs), a bicycle mass of 8kg (17.6lbs), and a rider output of 350W (i.e. significantly better than non-sandbagging Cat 5), on a flat section, aero wheels will only net the rider 14.6m or 1.2sec per 2km (that's 50ft in 1.25mi). For the OP's 15mi loop, the aero wheel effect will only account for about 600ft or 14.4sec. That is with 350W of power. Reducing the rider output to a more normal 250W, the difference will be more visible. But it's still at 14.6m or 1.4sec.
Totally eliminating the drag of both aero wheels (i.e. magical elven wheels) at 250W of rider output will net 66m or 6.1sec per 2km (218ft in 1.25mi). This is about 1/2mi in the 15mi loop. The OP stated that with the Zipps, he increased his average speed from high-17s (let's say 18) to 19.2mi/hr. That's a difference of nearly a mile (or 3min) between the two at the 15-mile mark. Obviously, even with Elven wheels, the difference cannot come solely from the wheels.
Thus, the substantial increase in average speed from high-17s into the 19s cannot be solely attributed to the fancy wheels. In fact, from this analysis, it is clear that the improved aerodynamics of the wheels only offer a small advantage.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a set of DV46 myself, even though I know they won't give me any dramatic speed increases, at least not $1800 worth. However, they're cool as h*ll, goes well with the other carbon bits, and the wife unit will certainly accept this better than another bike. Like what someone else stated, it's your money, so don't let anyone tell you how to spend it.
Given a rider mass of 65kg (143lbs), a bicycle mass of 8kg (17.6lbs), and a rider output of 350W (i.e. significantly better than non-sandbagging Cat 5), on a flat section, aero wheels will only net the rider 14.6m or 1.2sec per 2km (that's 50ft in 1.25mi). For the OP's 15mi loop, the aero wheel effect will only account for about 600ft or 14.4sec. That is with 350W of power. Reducing the rider output to a more normal 250W, the difference will be more visible. But it's still at 14.6m or 1.4sec.
Totally eliminating the drag of both aero wheels (i.e. magical elven wheels) at 250W of rider output will net 66m or 6.1sec per 2km (218ft in 1.25mi). This is about 1/2mi in the 15mi loop. The OP stated that with the Zipps, he increased his average speed from high-17s (let's say 18) to 19.2mi/hr. That's a difference of nearly a mile (or 3min) between the two at the 15-mile mark. Obviously, even with Elven wheels, the difference cannot come solely from the wheels.
Thus, the substantial increase in average speed from high-17s into the 19s cannot be solely attributed to the fancy wheels. In fact, from this analysis, it is clear that the improved aerodynamics of the wheels only offer a small advantage.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a set of DV46 myself, even though I know they won't give me any dramatic speed increases, at least not $1800 worth.
However, they're cool as h*ll, goes well with the other carbon bits, and the wife unit will certainly accept this better than another bike. Like what someone else stated, it's your money, so don't let anyone tell you how to spend it.
08-10-07, 08:17 AM
#74
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08-10-07, 08:19 AM
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In most of the cat 4 races I do about 1/3 or more of the racers have Zipps or some other type of expensive wheels. I see quite a few cat 5 racers with them as well. The only place I ever see anyone make fun of these people or give them a hard time is on the internet. Nobody ever cares in real life. I do hear people compliment them on their bikes and their wheels though.
