tcs

Oh, that's funny.

Anyway, Doublereed, maybe something like Ed Braley's Trek carbon-forks-and-stays Pilot 2.1 650B conversion?

https://www.bikeman.com/images/storie...pilot650B1.jpg

I think you could do about the same thing with an all-carbon frame Pilot 5.0. But in any case, if you're going to use your seatpost as a cantilevered luggage rack, get a stout one.

HTH,
TCS

markw

You might also rethink your platform. Here's what Michael Wolfe (no relation) is riding up in the Seattle/Portland area for Brevet's. I'm pretty sure he's heading to PBP with his Aero. Here's a write up of a 400k and on his bikes.

https://escapevelocipede.blogspot.com...1_archive.html

They come in Ti and Carbon, and Aluminum. If your going to do distance, you may want to look at comfort for the long haul. My paramount and LHT are gathering dust as I use my Corsa pretty much exclusively now, and just took delivery of an Aero frameset.

Mark

bmike

I've debated going to a bent... just can't see it though - something of a prejudice for the way a DF works.
I'm also not sure they'd be effective in the NE for the terrain we have. I can only remember seeing bents on the shorter (200k) Boston Brevets. (I may be wrong...)
The 600k last year had 20k feet of climbing - some of it steep. I can see a bent working really well on western style climbs - miles at a consistent gradient - but some of the climbs in the NE are paved cowpaths... I'm sure folks have done BMB on them.

Would be fun to try though. I've seen some folks around VT on them - but I've never seen them on App or Middlebury Gap. I'll have to ask around - maybe try to find a shop that'll let me spin one for a day.

Hezz

There are a lot of misconceptions about carbon fiber. Frankly, a well made carbon fiber bike would be the best choice for really long distance rides because it has the best ride quality of all the bike frame materials. This is because carbon fiber damps more vibration in critical frequencies better than steel, aluminum and titanium.

This is one reason they are putting carbon fiber forks and seat posts on aluminum frame bikes. Of course how the bike is built is just as important. But since carbon bikes are generally upscale bikes they are usually built well.

I say if you have the money and find a bike you like go for it. Carbon bikes are getting less expensive all the time.

pegleg

But he did have his finish line photos taken with the Vanilla. You have to be happy about that.

Six jours

Well, I think that's a bit overly broad, myself. I personally don't care for the ride of carbon all that much. Tires have vastly greater effect on ride comfort than do frame materials -- I'd much rather ride an old Cannondale with supple 30mm tires than the plushest carbon frame with narrow racing tires at 140 psi, at least as far as comfort goes -- and most carbon bikes feel a bit mushy to me.

Not, of course, that there's anything really wrong with carbon, if you like the way it rides. My only real concern would be finding one with all the features I want for randonneuring. I don't think such a beast exists, but then, the features I want aren't necessarily the ones other people want. C'est la vie.

markw

You need to hook up with Rich Pinto, he's the guy behind the Bacchetta design. He's in New Hampshire or somewhere up there. There's quite a few of them headed out to PBP this year. If you check the Century bike thread, I just posted up a picture of My carbon fiber Bacchetta. Built it from a 700c frame kit. Kind of a one off since they did a limited run of 700c frames. It's 22lbs without the bag/water bladder in that picture, and that's with heavy wheels and a euromesh over a carbon seat. Anyway, I'll pm you offline with Rich's email, he can tell you about the hills in your area and a bent.

Hezz

Well of course there are a lot of things that effect the ride of a bike and some carbon fiber race bikes might not be to comfortable for really long rides as the geometry of the structural features of the frame effect ride quality as much as anything. But because carbon fiber is more flexible in the shapes that they can build it can be customized more to tune the ride quality of the bike.

IF you need to carry a rack it may not be the best choice since there may not be any carbon bikes with the proper attachments. But there are better ways to carry loads of up to ten pounds without racks.

Tires of course seem to have a greater effect than nearly anything else since they are in direct contact with the road. However, the thread is not about tires.

Six jours

Okay, you win. Carbon fiber has the best ride quality of all frame materials, and though I prefer the ride of steel and/or titanium, I'm wrong.

Also, my mother smells of elderberries.

Hezz

OF course you are not wrong. Perhaps you just like more road feel or the way steel feels. This is a subjective preference. However, carbon fibers' vibration dampening properities are not subjective they are empirical. Chances are that you would have to try several carbon frames before you found one that suited your preferences.

Hocam

Steel is real!

spokenword

this is verging into tangent territory, but bmike, you might want to start a separate thread or at least PM ldesfor1. He did the Boston series this year with another two guys on recumbents. I know that, in general, they tended to finish in the tail end of the pack, mostly because of what you mentioned with hill climbing. They finished the 400 at 26:18, 42 minutes before cutoff, but they still finished.

They also had a really tough time with the 600. When I was leaving Brattleboro at 5:30, I believe that ldesfor1's 'bent was at the motel and that he was supposedly continuing on and just napping for a bit, the other two 'bent riders had DNF'ed around the climb to Stratton ... though, that's unconfirmed and based on control point rumours.

bmike

yeah, i'm more curious than anything.
i just don't see many of them round these parts (although i'm sure they are all riding when i'm working or being lazy)
when i lived in putney i remember seeing 1 trike in nearly 2 years... and he used it more as a commuter than anything.
i guess you'd need to be a really good spinner and bring alot of gears.

Six jours

When I'm old I'm going to have one of those supercool Mercian trikes made up.

Recumbents? Well, the velodrome where I used to work occasionally hosted streamliner races, and 60 MPH bicycle are pretty cool. But overall, the dynamic just seemed a little too pocket protector for my tastes. *running and hiding*

derath

Well I'm not a randonneur yet. I was hoping to be farther along this year but kids and life keep beating me down.

BUT, I will be a carbon fiber randonneur when I get my distance up. That is the bike I have. IMO I give up 2 things.

1. A proper rack- Good size Carradice solves that.

2. Proper fenders- Not that this is a CF thing. But most CF bikes don't seem to be the types that have clearance for fenders. I have done centuries with SKS raceblade fenders and they did fine. They don't keep the bike as clean, and you can get some spray on your feet. But seriously. I was soaked already. The main benefit for me with the fenders was keeping the front tire spray off my chin and the back tire spray from going all the way up my back.

Otherwise it is a super comfy bike and plenty durable.

-D

markw

I really need to change my sig. I'm on a carbon recumbent now. My lugged Paramount is still a cool all steel ride, but it's not as Aero, nor is it comfortable for oh, say 100+ miles.

markw

Recumbents have this stigma about not being able to climb. Mostly because they're insanely heavy, and have heavy riders, or fat old guys (FOGS) piloting them. Like I tell people when I'm out on mine as that is usually the first question, "how's it climb" my standard reply is that if you climb slow on an upright bike, you're going to climb slow on a recumbent. After a year on my bent, I'm pretty close to the same climbing speed that I had on my upright. I'm not the fastest up hills, but I'm not the slowest. I pass people and get passed. When it comes to climbing it's all about power to weight. That brings me to the other area, most the recumbents you see on the road are HEAVY, but this is changing. The newer Bacchetta's can be stupid light. The Carbon Aero used on last years RAAM was 17lbs, and Jim Kern was in 3rd place in the mountains before coughing up a lung in the high altitudes of Colorado (quite a few dnf'd there). This years RAAM saw two 2 man teams on recumbents. They didn't win 2 man overall, but they were only 6 hours behind the winners, and only 3 2 man teams have ever averaged over 18mph for RAAM in the history of the event. Recumbents have come a long way from being 30+ lb home built machines in someones garage, but they still have that stigma. Just because two recumbent riders barely made it for a 400k doesn't really say much. What was their fitness level? Lots of upright guys DNF also.

Here's a writeup by Danny Chew on this year's Calvins. Danny has pretty much owned this event.
https://www.dannychew.com/2007Calvins.html

If you're serious about Brevets and doing distance riding, IMHO a good performance recumbent and randonneuring go hand in hand. I'm not talking about those heavy homebuilts, or long wheelbase steel bikes, but current generation bikes like Bacchetta's Aero, or a Velokraft VK2. Bikes that are light, with fit riders. It's a big change from the uprights world, but I can guarantee you that everyone who's made the switch would do it again in a heartbeat.

Just check out https://www.ultracycling.com/ events and watch the results. Recumbents, especially Bacchetta's are well respected in the Ultra world. Look for 2 or maybe 3 two man recumbent teams this year at FC508. Both solo recumbents RAAM qualified at last years 508.

markw

Same here, but man, 75 watts at 25mph, nothing says geek like applying physics and aerodynamic principles to a bicycle to make it go fast. Most streamliners aren't practical on the street anyway, which is why I just added a Carbon Aero to my stable. Check the sig..

spokenword

actually, the Boston results just got posted last night, so to correct myself, of the three recumbent riders, only one DNF'ed, the other two finished in 39:15.

I don't doubt that a fit rider on a lightweight racing machine can put in a good showing on a brevet, but I also wonder how much of a difference there is between that rider's performance on a conventional DF frame versus a recumbent at relatively similar budget levels?

(I know that recumbents tend to be more expensive, but is there some rule of thumb for how much more expensive for a given performance class? Like, say, what would be the price difference between a carbon fiber Bachetta and a Trek 5200?)

do you have to train different muscles to climb on a 'bent vs. an upright? do people who traditionally climb while standing have to learn to climb with a higher rpm spin? I'm curious about why it took you a year to come back up to speed.

bmike

that's a geeky ride for sure. would love to try it though. i used a pocket protector all through middle school and junior high. some of high school too.

no room for fenders on that ride, so far as i can see.
when it rains do you end up with spray in the face? seems your back is pretty well protected.

do your arms tire after while? seems they are held in an unnatural position... my wrists and elbows are screaming at me just looking at the pic.

how would one handle 12-14% grade? what about 17%? 22%? (all grades i'll hit on a fall century, and some that i hit on interval / climbing sessions)

interesting... for sure.

markw

It didn't take a year, but it wasn't immediate either. As for speed, it was climbing that I needed to adjust to, day one on the bike had me 2-4mph faster everywhere else. My 19mph level ground cruise on my Paramount translated to 22-23mph on the recumbent for the same effort. Of the one big climb by my house I found myself pushing the bike the first time I tried it on the recumbent. I then was able to spin up in on the granny, and now I keep it in the middle ring, and I pass guys on it all the time. They say average is about 1000 recumbent miles to adjust. The problem is you can't stand and use body weight. However, you can push against the seat, and generate power but it can't be substained, so we pretty much spin.

The Carbon Aero has an MSRP of $5400. I built mine from a frame kit and used parts I had, so I'm into it for considerably less. The bike which I think is Bacchetta's biggest bang for the buck for those who want to go fast is the Corsa. It's an aluminum frame with 105/Ultegra and MSRP is $2200, although you can find them for less. If you're looking for a first recumbent I'd say go for the Corsa, if you don't like it, you can recover most of the outlay. Check out bentrideronline.com that's the big recumbent site. Also try to find a dealer in your area. https://www.bacchettabikes.com has a list by zip, and also an owners forum.

I find myself doing more long distance stuff now that I have the bent. Before you'd be lucky to see me do more than 50-60 miles on my Paramount, mainly due to jacking up my shoulder a few years back and the dull ache associated with distance riding on it.

markw

Actually, my arms are very comfortable. They are just out in front of me, kind of like a motorcycle cruiser postion, elbow slightly bent. Mission gorge is 8-10% and I do that on my middle chainring. Again, I'm 215 +/-5 so I don't climb fast. On the steeper stuff you'd gear down, I run a 26/27 low with the 650c wheels. Ron Smith was running a 24/28 on the same bike (Corsa), and when they gave him crap for a climbing ride, he was passing people on steep climbs when they were walking. So, yeah, they can climb, I've dipped down to 3-4mph on some climbs in the granny. On Mission Gorge, I can hold 8 give or take. Ron might chime in here as he follows the forum.

Hezz

Just for information sake. The Great divide bike race record was smashed this year on a Orbea all carbon fiber hardtail mountain bike. It was one of the most trouble free frames in the race. This is the longest off road endurance race in the world. 2500 miles 95% off road.

This should fundamentally lay to rest any notions that carbon fiber is less durable than steel for a frame material.

downtube42

Reading this thread in it's entirety tells a story than aligns with what I've seen on brevets, from 200k to 1500k:

Frame material, frame geometry, bike vintage, style of bike, fenders or no, tire width, luggage type, choice of electronics, number of gears, and number of vents in your helmet do not matter, in terms of who finishes and who does not. What's between your ears matters.

Jump on a carbon TT bike on 23s, throw a 10 pound backpack on your back, and you'll finish any brevet out there if you train enough and want it enough. Or ride something built in the 1800's and pulled from a barn, or something you concocted in you garage with a brazing torch and some gas pipe.

Get your carbon bike and ride.

StephenH

Holy moly. An 11-year-old zombie thread. Carbon Fiber was "new" when the question was asked.