wphamilton

I consider the lane to be everything from the center line to the curb, and I prefer to be somewhere in the lane most of the time.

If there's a reason to be directly in front of the motorized vehicles, including when I'm going the same speed as traffic as a reason, I'm happy to be there. Otherwise I'd rather not be directly in their path.

Ninety5rpm

The videos I linked in the OP are representative of how many cyclists ride all over the country, especially after taking a CyclingSavvy course. Did you watch them?

1989Pre 

I want to hear what the rest of the community, the non-cycling citizens feel about this. You are going to confuse people and you are going to distract them. Show us how you do it in high-speed traffic.

dh024

Ummm, did you even read my post that you quoted in your previous message above? Taking the lane often is not viable on high-speed roads.

Nobody in this thread is suggesting you take the lane in all circumstances, so perhaps that is where you are on a different page with the rest of us??

genec

I think the real issue that is not being discussed is that really, there are not "many" cyclists doing this... The reality is that cyclists taking Cycling Savvy or Road 1 or Effective Cycling or getting any real training for how to ride a bike in traffic are in the minority.

Many cyclists are mom and pop taught, and self taught, and thus tend to be curb huggers, ninjas, salmon... what ever terms you want to use, but are not riding like those folks in the videos.

Flat out most cyclists have no clue as to that riding style and tend to think the few riders they see riding in that manner are some sort of freak.

Now I am not saying that commanding a lane (when needed) is a bad thing... just that it is actually somewhat rare and not well understood by the general public, the motoring public or even the 2 percent of the public that actually bikes regularly.

It would be damn nice if we would somehow come up with a set of rules and practices and teach this stuff to the general public in their basic school curricula... some basic stuff in the lower grades, leading to more advanced "bicycle driving" in the upper grades... leading to sharing the road and how to drive at driving age.

But we don't really train folks to bike, or how to deal with cyclists... so the majority of cyclists out there (IE, NOT the "many") have no clue about that which is shown in those videos.

And consider this... does your local LBS promote any sort of classes along those lines? Probably not... and yet they are the primary contact for just about anyone on a bike... beyond "big box store" cyclists.

Ninety5rpm

The only way I know to get a sense of how non-cycling citizens feel about how I ride is to observe their behavior as motorists on the road with me.

It's no secret that being in their way aggravates some of them. The whole point of "and release" in "control and release" is to address that. In addition, I find that using a mirror and communicating with motorists helps a great deal too. The mirror also helps in observing how they behave in reaction to your position.

In the end my safety is more important than how they feel about my using the roadway to be conspicuous, but that's important too. So, to ensure I'm noticed from all directions, I have an optimal "driver position" vantage, I'm less susceptible to crossing conflicts, and I'm further from edge hazards, I generally prefer a conspicuous lane position near the left tire track. But I observe to the rear with mirror as well as looking ahead, I communicate, and I frequently release when appropriate. The net result is behavior from motorists that indicates they feel fine about how I ride.

There's no single formula. You have to decide whether to control or release based on conditions and the situation. Here's a demonstration from a CyclingSavvy instructor in Illinois controlling a lane and holding back motor traffic behind on a narrow bridge. How do the motorists there feel about it? Your guess is as good as mine. When I do stuff like this, they seem to be fine with it.

https://vimeo.com/57413023

Ninety5rpm

I use "many" here to mean "more than a few"; a "significant number". Enough to indicate it works. Not "the majority". Not "most". Of course it's not the majority; not even close. But it's still many cyclists doing it.

It's true that many motorists don't get it, but in my experience communicating with them before they get puzzled or irritated, and releasing as soon as it's appropriate, is all that's necessary for them to get it. In a sense, every savvy cyclist is a teacher in a rolling classroom whose students are the motorists in the immediate vicinity. Plenty of bike commuters have noticed issues when they start a new route, but soon enough the regulars catch on and everything smooths out. One cyclist can make a big difference, probably much more than any motorists course or PSA could ever do. For education to be effective you need receptive students. Motorists are not interested in cyclist safety; they have no skin in the game. Besides, I've seen your posts on AVs - they will make the dangers and problems of human drivers moot soon enough.

1989Pre 

1.) Can you describe the phenomenon of a driver not being able to see a cyclist who is 4 feet from her right bumper, but can see him directly in front of her car? I can't envision the physical or psychological conditions on her part that would produce this. 2.) Why do you think it is safer to be in front of a car whose driver wants to do 30mph in the 35 mph zone, than beside it?
This sounds like a power trip to me, a suicidal thrill-seeking, fueled by a combination of desperation and PCP, amphetamines or steroids.

1989Pre 

Ok, I can see from this photo and the "program" that you guys are intent on upping the ante in making "taking the lane" a thing. You're going to get a lot of cyclists hurt by doing this. All because of a psychotic belief in "not being seen". I wouldn't care about the cyclists out in the middle of the road, showing how "tough" they are, but some of these drivers are going to take it out on riders who cycle normally. Thanks bunches for your arrogance and impatience.

jon c. 

As a driver on the roads in the area that I live, I can see riders who are in the lane from a much greater distance. If they're riding the fog line, they get lost in the shadows. On roads with a lot of turns and small rises, it's nice when you can spot a cyclist well before you get to them so that even if you can no longer see them, you know you're likely to see them just around the turn or over the crest of a hill.

Ninety5rpm

Good questions!

John Franklin refers to the area directly ahead of the vehicle as the driver's "zone of maximum surveillance".

"Motorists primarily give their attention to that part of the highway where there is risk to themselves: they are not nearly so good at noticing anything outside their path. This zone of maximum surveillance is often very narrow, especially at higher speeds - it does not extend to much more than the moving traffic lane that the driver is following, plus the moving traffic lanes that are most likely to conflict with the driver's own movement. For you to be safest as a cyclist, you should ride within this zone of maximum surveillance, not outside it." -John Franklin, Cyclecraft

These concepts are also conveyed with images:





Much of this is addressed in the CyclingSavvy FAQ I linked in the OP, but here it is again:

FAQ: Why do you ride like that? ? CyclingSavvy

Of course I don't agree it's a power trip, but many CyclingSavvy students, especially women, have found learning these concepts, techniques and practices to be empowering.

Ninety5rpm

That sign is posted on the back of an LA city bus. Take it up with them if you have a problem with their "program".

And if you have an issue with this sign, well then you have an issue with the Federal Highway Administration's "program":

mcours2006

Whether or not you agree with a viewpoint is one thing, calling people who have a different opinion than you do 'clowns', and their beliefs 'psychotic' is overstepping the bounds of decorum, and perhaps the rules of this forum. You've not only shown your own arrogance and impatience, but also that you're incapable of constituting any valid argument so you resort to name calling.

I fear your might be one of these drivers who is going to take out a rider one of these days.

Happy Feet

And here come the spam graphics again...

You sound like a reasonable person (and fellow [former] Calgarian ) but the OP has stated he rides this way in 6 lane arterials with vehicles doing 55mph no problem. He also claims drivers will not rear end him on a bike because drivers don't expect to see cyclists in front of them. The logic that comes to this conclusion when it would appear almost all vehicular rear end collisions occur from one car not expecting another to be in front of them is just staggering.

The argument isn't so much about whether a technique is right or wrong but rather the degree to which it is employed. There are times when it is a reasonable action, particularly on narrow roads with no shoulders; but the VC, SC, TtheL advocates go further and suggests it as a default rather than occasional pursuit. They do this by first vilifying other options as in the posts above by suggesting you can't be seen in the right side zone. No proof, just fuzzy logic with self generated graphics. Just use your common sense. I drive as well as cycle and know that is patently false. They use terms like gutter or edge to describe shoulders and discount bike lanes as not being up to their standards.

So, while they say they take the lane when appropriate, the degree to which they feel they need to do so is far more than most reasonable people feel because they discount the other viable alternatives. Take advantage of those alternatives and stop the fear based rhetoric and taking the lane becomes what it should be, an occasional tool.

Do I take the lane occasionally? Yes. But it is a minority option rather than a default philosophy.

1989Pre 

Apparently, the stated reason for this new necessity to ride in the middle of the street is because cyclists on the side of the road "cannot be seen". I find this befuddling and it totally thwarts my sense of logic and defies my experience. One member cited that bicyclists riding on the side are "...in shadows".
This is so counter-intuitive that I'm not sure I'm being lied to, here, or someone is just fabricating some new reality for some reason.
The side of the road is where drivers expect to see cyclists (and joggers and pedestrians, etc.). Why would a shadow obscure someone's vision? This is nonsense. Is this "shadow" not in the middle of the road, as well?
If a driver can not see the side of the road (or anyone occupying it), there is a medical condition which should prevent that individual from owning a driver's license.
Another member, here, objected to my use of the term "psychosis". I can assure you that that term was carefully-chosen, for there exists a psychosis, where-in, the individual believes that other people can not see him.
There is no rational explanation why a normally-sighted driver, without psychological impairment, would not be able to see four feet to his or her right.
To even toy with the idea that a bike can "command" a lane is to exhibit clinical grandiosity.

1989Pre 

While their fear of not being seen and their rationalizing of it could describe psychosis, you are right about one thing: They are not clowns. They are dead-serious about wielding a power they do not possess. They are intent on aggravating motorists to the point that they may well seek revenge on normal cyclists. What are you going to do when an elderly person drives up behind you as you plod along at 8 mph and she has no idea what is happening or why you are in the street or what she should do? Will you be surprised if she tries to pass you on the right or heads into opposing traffic? How would you like "being seen", then?!
No valid argument? I think that at least most of what I said is completely valid and even urgent. Speaking of decorum, get your mind out of the gutter and change your avatar.

1989Pre 

Sure. Sure. That's brilliant.

1989Pre 

These images attempt to project a distortion of reality. Lanes do not "become narrower" and drivers without psychological impairment do not have greivous lapses in distance judgement. Typically-sized modern cars (and trucks) can fully occupy a single lane with a bicycle and safely pass it. I have experienced this many times, as have all cyclists. You are not going to come on here and tell me that what I have experienced is not real. Stay to the right...Out of the way of traffic.

1989Pre 

If you can not see cyclists who ride normally, on the right, You need to do the right thing and stop driving until you have had a full checkup with your physician and/or specialist. The hardest part is admitting you have a problem. A cyclist shouldn't have to be in the middle of the road, where she could be in jeopardy.

dh024

I had this argument with the OP in a different thread, but he seems to be more open-minded and welcoming to different viewpoints in this thread. So, in that spirit, I stated my opinion and qualified it to state when I have found it appropriate (and inappropriate) to take the lane, including cautions about high speed roads. So yes, I am trying to be reasonable, and it was not my intent to appear to be 'taking sides'. If anyone would like to debate the merits of what I have proposed in a respectful manner, I welcome further discussion.

jon c. 

Do you consider that a reasonable argument in favor of whatever the heck it is you're attempting to advocate?

I certainly can't take it seriously.

jonc123

They might be:

A. Lighting a crack pipe
B. Opening a beer
C. Rolling a joint
E. Using Cell Phone
F. Windshield fogged over
G. Ice on windshield
H. Foggy/Rainy conditions
I. Driving into the sun
J. Do not own a pair of sunglasses
K. Forgot prescription glasses
L. Just had eyes dialated at doc
M. Arguing with husband/wife
O. Messing with kid in back seat
P. I'm getting tired of typing.

Ninety5rpm

A common factor in bike-car crashes is the motorist did not notice the cyclist, or did not notice the cyclist in time. "I didn't see you" is not a lie.

If you have not read about inattentional blindness, I suggest you Google it and learn about it. Be sure and pay attention to the role that relevance play in getting people's attention, and then think about where you need to ride not merely to be seen, but to be relevant and noticed.

Or not. If you're doing fine with the way you ride, mostly "out of the way", and feel you're treated well, more power to you. It's all good.

But, then, I rode for decades in the traditional "out of their way" (mostly) manner and believed that was all good too. Boy, was I wrong!

Ninety5rpm

Doing it on high speed roads is definitely an "advanced" practice, but I find it to be surprisingly effective.

I'm not the only one. Perhaps the most challenging areas are on arterials at freeway on and off ramps where motorists are in 'freeway mode", but even there, it's fine. Watch:


And these are not racer types. They're aging commuters...

CyclingSavvy takes beginners on roads like this.

Happy Feet

Agreed