CycleBreeze

Hi all,

I'm in the process of deciding which Downtube FS would be best for me, and I enjoyed a very helpful conversation with Yan, who happily answered all of the questions he could, at that time, and is a very enjoyable person to converse with, generally.

However, I forgot to ask one thing that's mystified me, so I wanted to ask any Downtube owners, here, before bothering Dr. Lyansky again:

Why Does the 8FS Have an Angle-Adjustable Stem But the 9FS Does Not?

And perhaps more importantly, can anyone share their experiences with the 8FS's adjustable stem (whether they liked it, ease of use, etc...), and opine on whether or not it could be easily fitted to the 9FS? (I like a very "standard" [i.e., upright] riding position, both for personal ergonomics and visibility in traffic--both to see and be seen. So I've had to retrofit most of my bicycles with high-rise stems, and sometimes "riser bars" of an additional 4.5" height--and when you do all that, you end up fitting longer cables, etc.... It's a process....) Plus, I may not be the only rider, so greater adjustabilility, for different body-types, is a definite plus for me.


Pedal to Seat-Height Distance?
Also, does anyone know the measurement, in inches, between the top of the seat, in it's maximum, safe-height, and the top of the pedal, at it's lowest point? (Due to a bad knee, I ride with as much leg extension as possible, and have modified my non-folders as needed.) If someone would be willing to take such measurements on their 9FS (or 8FS, as I understand the two bikes frames are the same) I'd really appreciate it!

Thanks in advance,

CycleBreeze

Bonzo Banana

I'm not a fan of either bike as I feel suspension is un-needed on a general road folding bike (thicker profile tyres inflated to suit the rider's weight would be all the suspension you need I would of thought). It just makes the bike more problematic, less efficient and most importantly much heavier. It could also shorten the expected lifespan of the bike considerably. Tyres and a comfortable saddle are normally all you need on a bicycle for comfort. Suspension is best left for off road use in my opinion and even then you don't need suspension much of the time. Many rigid mountain bikes perform well off road.

However for the $300 difference between the 2 bikes there is very little to be gained it seems and as you have stated even some positives with the stem angle adjustment of the cheaper model. I'd assumed looking at the price the 9FS was going to feature a high end drivetrain but its actually sunrace which is low end and on the same level as Microshift fitted to the 8FS. In fact I'm pretty sure from memory Microshift actually make some of the Sunrace components. I'd struggle to see $100 of difference between the bikes.

I would suggest to you that you look to see where your $300 extra is going.

Have you considered a Zizzo Euromini Urbano? Also a direct seller with longer frame warranty and lighter weight. You'll be able to go faster, tackle hills easier and have less maintenance and reliability issues over the long term?

Doc_Wui

Well, I learned something new today. There's a "Minimum Insertion" mark stamped on our Downtube 8FS seat tube. When I put the mark just below the collar of the frame, I believe the seat distance you want is 38". That's way up there.

I found that my Downtube Nova with the lower frame has the "Min Insertion" printed on the tube, and that distance is only 32". Wonder if I got them mixed up. Nah, it's anodized black like the front stem. My inseam is only 30-31" so it's OK for me.

The front tubes do adjust, but I didn't mess with them, but you must be referring to the stem that can be rotated 45 degrees. The diameter of the tube there is 28.6mm. That's your standard 1 1/8" stem. If the 9FS uses a 1 1/8" too, you could buy an adjustable stem. No need to move the whole assembly. Meanwhile, my Nova uses a thicker 30.61mm tube up front, and I don't know if I could buy a stem that fits..

bonsai80

The handlepost on the 8FS angles back towards the rider a little more than the one on the 9FS. The adjustable stem on the 8FS positions the handlebars further out, likely to compensate for the more angled back handlepost. If you're mainly worried about raising the handlebars so you can sit up straighter, that's done via the telescopic handlepost which will extend pretty far. You don't need an adjustable stem to adjust handlebar height on these bikes.

FYI, I had an old 8H that was configured similarly to the 8FS (laid back handlepost with adjustable stem). I actually swapped out the adjustable stem for a shorter fixed one that suited my reach, then adjusted height via the telescopic handlepost. I now have a 9S which is configured like the 9FS. If you were to add a threadless stem to this type of handlepost (assuming it would fit), keep in mind that the stock handlebar clamp is an integral part the telescopic handlepost tube. You will have to cut that off and close off the tube with a star nut/top cap (unless you don't mind seeing a vestigial clamp on top).

downtube

I took a hiatus after Thor and Jur were banned.. I'm kind of back...we'll see what happens.
@bonzo- you really should study up on parts and manufacturers. Shimano makes both junk and awesome stuff. The same is true with Sun race and Microshift. I get to see their top stuff at trade shows, so I'm lucky. Looking at https://www.microshift.com/en/produc...ar-derailleur/ and SunRace | Products is a good place to see their complete offerings.

FYI my drivetrains are much better than low end Shimano, but they are close the same cost ( OEM ). I use SunRace ( Taiwan ) for my higher end applications, and Microshift ( China ) for my cheaper models. The Chinese drivetrains are quick & easy to source while I need to wait 90+ days for the Taiwanese parts.

Thanks,
Yan

Joe Remi

Jur is gone, too?? Wow, I didn't know that.

downtube

Yeah that's messed up.

Thanks
Yan

Schwinnsta

Jur left in protest over Thor being banished.

towndock

Why was Thor banned? His and Jur's posts & input are a real loss for this forum.

downtube

I talked with Thor about this. He claims he told a customer to contact ANY Dahon dealer to purchase his bike....and that got him banned.

Honestly Pingis is constantly peddling his goods. I can't understand how they could ban anyone else.

I used to advertise on these forums, so I contacted the advertising dept for Thor. He was planning on advertising to get things back to normal. However he got a ridiculous email asking for advertising money and threatening to banish him again. I don't expect him back here. Additionally, I am not sure that I will be here much longer.

Thanks
Yan

Pinigis 

Really?! I am here answering questions, just like you

Dowacky

The "owner" of Downtube does not stand behind his products and will not replace manufacturers defective parts.

He will expect you to take it to a bike repair shop and pay to have it fixed.

I received an 8S with a defective chain that broke after a very short ride (the bike has less than 35 miles on it).

The person claiming to be the owner said he would send me a few new links and that I needed to take to bike to a repair shop and have them repair it for me at my expense.

When I tried to explain that this bike was less than a week old and that it obviously had a manufacturer defect and should be replaced because there was a high possibility this would happen again if the chain was defective and he told me I was unreasonable and that he wanted me to return the bike, again at my expense, and that I would be blacklisted from buying products from his company. He would try and double talk over me and would not allow a word in edgewise.

When I asked if this was his normal business model and policy and to please allow me to speak and at least get an opportunity to explain my position he hung up on me and blocked my number.

I called from a different phone and he had someone who does not speak English well answer and tell me he was not there. I asked her for her name and the name of the company I had called and she freaked out and handed the phone to the same person I had been speaking with and the first words out of his mouth were "Do you want me to block this number too?" I asked him to please allow me to speak, and he said, "oh, now your going to pretend to be reasonable", and then he hung up on me again. I called back and it went to voicemail and I left a message where I actually got to speak and explain my position. Ne return call yet. None expected from such a shady person/company.


Do yourself a favor and avoid this company at all costs. You will be better off with a Stowabike for $135 from Walmart than trying to deal with this company, and receive far better customer service. At least Walmart will stand behind their products and replace defective items within 30 days.

tds101 

All you needed to do was either replace the chain links OR go buy a new chain. The bike isn't defective because of a broken chain. A broken chain DOES NOT warrant a complete BICYCLE REPLACEMENT.

And NO - I'm not a Downtube rep, and I have no personal vested interest in their bikes.

Dowacky

I am completely aware of that.
The point is, I purchased a $340 bike with a factory defective chain. I asked the manufacturer to replace the chain due to the fact that the one provided was obviously defective to have come apart after so little use.
The complaint is that Downtube, instead of trying to help a customer with a new bike that had a defective part. Decided to make the customer take the bike to a third party to have them patch the defective chain with a "few new links" as he put it. If the chain separated once due to a defect, it would make sense to replace the defective chain, not attest to patch it.
And none of this would even be an issue if Downtube stood behind their products. Instead I get insulted and told it is my responsibility to fix it and that I would be banned from every purchasing from the company again if I did. I was hung up on twice and had my number blocked. then I receive an insulting email from the "owner" Yan.:
"Normally we get many thank you's from customers. I am appalled by your consistent belligerence on the phone.
I offered you two chain links, however I will need to inspect the fault before I send anything. This requirement is spelled out in our terms and conditions.
I would be happy if you decided to return the bike under our terms. Please understand we will never be able to sell you anything again. Additionally phone conversations are disallowed. You can send all requests through email or snail mail.
We do not pay for labor.
On a separate note I forgive you for your shameful behavior."

This is the type of company this is.
Best advice is STAY AWAY!

Dowacky

And I see that Yan is an active member here.

I would love to have him explain to all here why a brand new bike with a defective chain would need to be taken to a shop to repaired *at the new bike owners expense* instead of just replacing the defective part.


I would also like to know how he can guarantee that the same thing would not happen again on a different part of the chain, if the chain was obviously defective and had separated in the first place.


The worst thing about this business is he has absolutely no respect for the customer. ( you know, the poor people that provide him his livelihood ) He attempts to constantly talk over them so they cannot speak.... And when he does this he certainly cannot listen to any complaints, can he?

As you can see in the email I posted from him. He automatically doubts the customer complaints by needing to "Inspect it" first before sending out a few measly links.


It is obvious he is just concerned about making a buck. That is why he would prefer to run me off as a customer than to have a good reputation. (take my money and make me go away)

Once you buy you're pretty much on your own from there.


I am open to opinions on this:

Should a bike manufacturer stand behind their products and offer service after the sale that would include some sort of guarantee that the bike they sold did not have factory defective parts?

And, should this manufacturer just patch the defective part, or replace the defective part completely.

Mind you this is a brand new bike with lesss that 5 rides/miles on it, one week from purchase.


Thanks,

FolderBeholder

I cannot speak for any experience I have with this vendor as a customer, but in my estimation even a defective component of a bike, IS the manufacturer's full, & cheerful responsibility during the entirety of warranty period. Components selected by, and provided by the "manufacturer" are still the manufacturers responsibility to it's customers.

That being said, we own 2 competing, and like-priced bikes from another on-line seller and have had 2 small hiccups during the warranty period, both of which were quickly, cheerfully, addressed to my liking without any drama. Indeed, one was a chain (same supplier as your bikes' chain perhaps?) and the other was a wheel bearing. I was given the option of a trip to a LBS with full reimbursment, OR replacement part for the ones in question, to be installed by me. My choice.

I don't much like taking my internet purchases into a local brick & mortar when the going gets rough, I opted for the replacment parts, and both of my issues were resolved...and I learned a little something about my bicycles in the process.

Both bikes are well out of warranty now, we are still delighted with them, and would not hesitate to purchase from this company again. The way they handled our small issues is a BIG portion of our entire experience with their products.

I've been so happy with these bikes, I've referred them to several others and gifted some to family.

I'm sorry for your grief, and recognizing there are 2 sides to every story, I'm certain the entire interraction could have been handled differently, but at the end of the day "the customer is always right".

Certainly a new chain would've certainly been the shortest distance between two points.

tds101 

I'll say it this way,...a few links to replace the defective part is a solution, BUT a replacement chain is the actual remedy I'd require myself. Hopefully @downtube can address this issue, and you can finally be a happy camper. A manufacturer defective part is the responsibility of the SELLER of the bike,...considering there's a product warranty of usually at LEAST 1 year.

I may have miss stated before,...my apologies.

downtube

I have had a handful chain warranties over the years. I normally send replacement links, however I have also sent chains. I am amicable to resolve problems in the best way. I believe this problem is social. Let me explain.

I spent 15-20 minutes on the phone with this customer. He had multiple concerns on one bike ( he purchased two ).

The discussion started normally. Then he started yelling. He wanted a new chain, then a master link, then he wanted a new chain with a master link, then he wanted me to pay for labor. He was switching requests faster than I could respond. He never stated a singular request, just a repeating sequence of requests. I understand this person did not want a solution....I offered several. He seems content with complaining over and over again.

​​​​​​After repeating his position at least five times he took a different approach. Claiming I did something ( step 1 ) which implies something else ( step 2 ) and after a few more steps he claimed a contradiction. I found the premise and logic disturbing. This was a bit too much for me to continue. I mentioned that I would prefer to get the bike back. He then wanted me to pay shipping.

This conversation was nothing short of abuse. I stated that I was ending all discussions and hung up. He called yelling from a different number and I told him all his numbers will be blocked and all communication will be handled by email.

At this time I have responded to all requests via email, and will continue to respond to requests that have not been addressed.

Thanks
Yan

Dowacky

So, Let me point out the lies here:



I invite anyone thinking about buying from this company to look closely at the website for mention of any kind of warranty. The only place you will find it mentioned is a very brief description on the FAQ's page. And this mostly tries to place the responsibility on the 3rd party manufacturers they use. The receipt I received stated that any factory defects should be discovered before accepting the shipment and to refuse the shipment if any are found. Tell me, would your UPS person stand around and wait for you to unbox and assemble the bike to find any defects so you could then refuse the shipment, box it back up, and return the bike?


Don't get me wrong, the bikes are decent enough. Even though some of the parts are low quality, such as my chain, I enjoy mine. It functions fairly well. My son reports he uses his regularly at school, even though he had to take the bike to a third party repair shop to get the chain fixed, AT HIS OWN EXPENSE, before he could ride it. (he still says it it squeaks a lot when riding.)


​​​​​​​Best advice I can give is: If you are interested in buying one of these bikes, I STRONGLY SUGGEST you call and demand a WRITTEN WARRANTY detailing what is and is not covered and who is responsible for paying for any labor to have defective parts replaced, and IF they will be replaced, BEFORE you send any money. Otherwise you are rolling the dice on the type of service after the sale you will receive. Yan's word alone is pretty much worthless. He is clearly more interested in making a buck than running a reputable company.

​​​​​​​Yan's statement about this being social is just another example of his inflated ego and attempt to avoid standing behind his products. This is what you will have to deal with if there is any defect on the bike you receive and mine was one good, one not so good. Not very good odds from my experience. I honestly do not know how he stays in business with a 50/50 product failure rate and such bad service after the sale.


I am still open to others opinions on:

​​​​​​​Should a bike manufacturer/seller stand behind the products they sell, and cover any defects found when the bike is received?

and

Should a bike manufacture/seller replace a defective part with a new one, or should they just be liable to patch the defect and make the customer pay for the labor to have it repaired themselves?


Good Luck,

K

FolderBeholder

I'm sorry for both of you regarding the level of escalation that this has risen to.

From the outside looking in, it seems to have been totally avoidable....but it wasn't avoided.

We've now heard both sides of the story. One of those versions seems to be infused with emotion and inflammatory
descriptions of the event. I don't think that style makes any case, nor do I feel it helps settle any business dispute.

It's too bad this is being aired-out publicly. Right or wrong, were I the vendor with an online reputation to think-of I'd
re-attempt to resolve this privately. When I have an unhappy or "could-be" unhappy customer in my business life,
I proactively attempt resolve their problem TO THEIR LIKING, then do so, and simply move on.
Nobody needs this type of public attention to their business. Bad news travels faster than good news does.

Ultimately I think people are reasonable, and have reasonable expectations for a resolution which means it's easier to
please them than it is to battle it out with them.

Again, too bad for this now very public grievance, and I hope (urge) you two can resolve this amicably, & privately.

minbikemaxfun

Hi FolderBeholder,

Would you mind sharing with me the folding bike company that you refer to your family and friends?

I can't direct message you since I'm a newbie.

I am a huge fan of great customer support, and would appreciate your referral. In the past I have bought folding bikes from companies that did not offer the best post purchase support. As a result, I do not recommend those companies to any of my friends. I hope business owners understand that customer support is not about optimizing every dollar from the most recent transaction. Instead it is about securing a long term customer so that they and their friends will bring you new business for years to come.

Feel free to direct message me if this discussion isn't appropriate in this thread.

Thanks!
A folding bike enthusiast.

FolderBeholder

In an effort to not derail this subject, or appear to promote a competitor to the subject at-hand I'll keep this private so please check your private messaging.

minbikemaxfun

Thanks so much for your message. It is extremely helpful. Unfortunately I couldn't even send a direct reply since I need to make more posts.

As for the recent discussion in this thread, I wish all parties luck at resolving it. I can definitely understand the frustration from the customer's point of view, since you just paid $300+ for a product that failed, and you just want a product that works right out of the box. From the seller's point of view, you want to make sure the customer's not trying to scam you for a free chain. But that's the risk that sellers take. If you take a short term view of optimizing each individual sale, you might miss the big picture and lose business in the long term.

CycleBreeze

@FolderBeholder,

I am the OP on this thread, and I've got the same question as minibkemaxfun, which I bolded, below. To wit:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

@FolderBeholder,

As I say, I am the OP on this post, but I was so put off by "Bonzo Banana's" (apparent) “decision" that I didn't need/want a fully suspended folder that I never came back here to the thread I started…until now. (We've already got a [used] fully suspended, 20" folder for my wife and we both LOVE it--it's just got a cockpit that's too small for me, and I think it's "grey market" since I can find virtually no info on it--it's a Tobukaera "SUS-TECH 20" ".)

Given that all too many of the "cage drivers" (a motorcyclist term used to describe the four+-wheeled vehicles that are driven by humans who apparently have no regard for the health/lives of anyone outside of their "cage") are more concentrated on texting than driving, WE (two-wheelers) are supposed to stick together. But I didn't feel like taking the time and spending the energy to explain myself (in detail "Bonzo" might find sufficiently compelling), i.e., that I just ******** LIKE suspension (and the more the merrier, generally speaking--see today's "hard enduro" MCs with 11+" of suspension travel), “mid-travel” and “long-travel” rail buggies, etc….

And weight is not a concern for me--I won't be entering any races, nor marathons, on a folder or any, other, two-wheeled conveyance. But some (light) OFF-road riding (on trails) is appealing--yet another reason for someone to actually want a fully-suspending bicycle--additional weight, complexity and cost be damned.

And I've had back surgery. And shoulder surgery (and may need more shoulder surgery) So, suspension is both fun and functional--for ME. "Bonzo's" mileage obviously varies--and may he never become injured—NOR get old.

But back to you, FolderBeholder:

Out of respect for your stated position (to minbikemaxfun) not to name competitors here--I did try to send you a PM, but I got this admonishment, for my efforts:

"The administrator has restricted use of the private message system to members with less than 10 posts."

So, since I cannot PM you, FolderBeholder can you please answer minbikemaxfun's question, above, i.e.:

"Would you mind sharing with me the folding bike company that you refer to your family and friends?"

And since damn near everything else has been "shared" on this post--LOL--and I'm it's OP, FWIW, I certainly think it's appropriate for you to "name names" of folding bike brands, as we're in the (appropriate) folding bike forum, right?

And I'm only interested in fully-suspended bikes--though I am aware of the "Thudbuster" option, as a (partial?) substitute for a missing rear suspension.

Thank you, most sincerely,

CycleBreeze

tds101 

Here ya go: https://www.origamibicycles.com/?gcl...hoC0mcQAvD_BwE