Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
#501
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But if "faster" is the definition, how much faster are they really? And I don't consider anything done by places like GCN "science". And lacking anything real, in terms of science, I fall back on something like plain old race times. And in that situation, while new "bikes" are faster, the amount they are faster is not as great as one would think. Again, look at my Ironman Kona post. You can also look at stage races and climbing times in the TDF. Now granted, times up Alpe d'Huez in the TDF are dependent upon lots of things, including EPO, but I am always surprised at how fast those old fat farts with heavy steel bikes and just nutty gearing went up those hills. The hell with aero, get me a safe version of EPO.
Modern bikes are expensive because people will pay for them. The shift did not occur today but in 2010. Lots of bikes in 2010 that cost $15,000. By todays level, that would be over $20K. There is a substantial wealth imbalance in the world and the rich are getting much richer and prices should reflect that.
The "performance" of today's bikes are questionably better. The rest is marketing to sell bikes. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Modern bikes are expensive because people will pay for them. The shift did not occur today but in 2010. Lots of bikes in 2010 that cost $15,000. By todays level, that would be over $20K. There is a substantial wealth imbalance in the world and the rich are getting much richer and prices should reflect that.
The "performance" of today's bikes are questionably better. The rest is marketing to sell bikes. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Last edited by georges1; 04-06-24 at 11:15 AM.
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#502
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...not me. I'm still astonished to realize that all the guys pushing modern technological improvements, driven by the desire for increased speed and performance, are actually riding stuff that has been intentionally detuned, for comfort. And using those "improvements", and the research costs behind them, as a rationale for expensive top end toys. I'm here to learn.
I'm happy you're "faster" thanks to disposable income, if "In many cycling "events," faster is by definition "better." All of us want to be our best version of self.
I'm happy you're "faster" thanks to disposable income, if "In many cycling "events," faster is by definition "better." All of us want to be our best version of self.
But if you were keen to learn then you should know that some bikes are optimised for different parameters. Endurance bikes are generally a little more comfortable than aero optimised race bikes. For ordinary amateur riders like myself, this tends to make them actually faster on longer events where fatigue is a key factor, especially on rougher roads. A pro rider might still be faster on an aero race bike, but I’m a 56 year old amateur so I value a little more comfort. My bike is still pretty quick though. It’s all relative.
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Yeah, sure you are.
But if you were keen to learn then you should know that some bikes are optimised for different parameters. Endurance bikes are generally a little more comfortable than aero optimised race bikes. For ordinary amateur riders like myself, this tends to make them actually faster on longer events where fatigue is a key factor, especially on rougher roads. A pro rider might still be faster on an aero race bike, but I’m a 56 year old amateur so I value a little more comfort. My bike is still pretty quick though. It’s all relative.
But if you were keen to learn then you should know that some bikes are optimised for different parameters. Endurance bikes are generally a little more comfortable than aero optimised race bikes. For ordinary amateur riders like myself, this tends to make them actually faster on longer events where fatigue is a key factor, especially on rougher roads. A pro rider might still be faster on an aero race bike, but I’m a 56 year old amateur so I value a little more comfort. My bike is still pretty quick though. It’s all relative.
Not sure what you point is here ? We seem to be in complete agreement that everything is relative. I'm only keen to learn stuff that is not solely based on opinion and affirmation. That stuff, opinion and affirmation based "fact", not so much.
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...I'm pretty much aware of this. Merckx put out two versions of his steel frames, one just branded with his name, the other called "The Century". Sport touring geometry has been around since way back into the days you have already told me you know little about, in a prior post. I can find the exact quote for you if you want...I certainly don't want to risk arousing the ire of tomato coupe again.
Not sure what you point is here ? We seem to be in complete agreement that everything is relative. I'm only keen to learn stuff that is not solely based on opinion and affirmation. That stuff, opinion and affirmation based "fact", not so much.
Not sure what you point is here ? We seem to be in complete agreement that everything is relative. I'm only keen to learn stuff that is not solely based on opinion and affirmation. That stuff, opinion and affirmation based "fact", not so much.
Let’s be honest though, you are not here to learn anything. You are here only to deride expensive new bikes and argue why you think we don’t deserve to be riding them. All this complete bs about not being able to extract 100% of their performance potential and comparing us to pro riders on older bikes is laughable.
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Speaking of super high tech advancements, we've went from a multi piece adjustable stem/handlebar system of one material, to a multi piece adjustable system of another material, to a one piece non adjustable system of another material. The best part is, the one piece non adjustable system costs what, 10-15 times the cost of the previous systems. That's some real progress right there.
Ritchey SuperLogic stem: $250
Total: $550
Ritchey SuperLogic Butano Ridge integrated bar/stem: $599
Huge price difference! /s
#506
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To prevent this thread from shutting down and get things back to the original premise, I believe high-end bicycles are so expensive nowadays due to the following.
I'll say that there are a variety of factors contributing to this trend. One major factor is the rising cost of materials, particularly carbon fiber that are commonly used in bike frames. Additionally, advances in technology and design have made bikes more complex and sophisticated manufacture, which drives up the price. Lastly, increasing specialization has created a greater demand for high-end bikes, which manufacturers have capitalized on by producing pricier models with marginal gains in mind regardless of the cost to implement.
The additional expenses required to attain the slight improvements expected from premium bicycles significantly add to the end user's cost, particularly due to the limited quantities involved. It's important to factor in all the tooling and development costs.
I agree that marketing plays a role in these increased costs. However, marketing now focuses on product differentiation through features implemented and unique designs rather than in the past when marketing was primarily focused on the brand and brand reputation.
Dismissing the advancements made in modern bicycles as something the average consumer cannot appreciate is ludicrous. It's a tired argument that suggests things were better in the past, when in reality, progress should be celebrated.
I'll say that there are a variety of factors contributing to this trend. One major factor is the rising cost of materials, particularly carbon fiber that are commonly used in bike frames. Additionally, advances in technology and design have made bikes more complex and sophisticated manufacture, which drives up the price. Lastly, increasing specialization has created a greater demand for high-end bikes, which manufacturers have capitalized on by producing pricier models with marginal gains in mind regardless of the cost to implement.
The additional expenses required to attain the slight improvements expected from premium bicycles significantly add to the end user's cost, particularly due to the limited quantities involved. It's important to factor in all the tooling and development costs.
I agree that marketing plays a role in these increased costs. However, marketing now focuses on product differentiation through features implemented and unique designs rather than in the past when marketing was primarily focused on the brand and brand reputation.
Dismissing the advancements made in modern bicycles as something the average consumer cannot appreciate is ludicrous. It's a tired argument that suggests things were better in the past, when in reality, progress should be celebrated.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 04-06-24 at 12:34 PM.
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Right, so then you should be able to relate to the modern day equivalent of those bikes.
Let’s be honest though, you are not here to learn anything. You are here only to deride expensive new bikes and argue why you think we don’t deserve to be riding them. All this complete bs about not being able to extract 100% of their performance potential and comparing us to pro riders on older bikes is laughable.
Let’s be honest though, you are not here to learn anything. You are here only to deride expensive new bikes and argue why you think we don’t deserve to be riding them. All this complete bs about not being able to extract 100% of their performance potential and comparing us to pro riders on older bikes is laughable.
I can certainly relate. Of the bicycles I ride here most regularly, 2/3 of them are of the slightly longer wheelbase, sport touring geometry you seem to favor.
I just do not understand, personally, why you insist on projecting this idea of "derision" of what others choose to ride onto me. Derision is kind of what you do, in these threads. Although I admit you're not the worst offender.
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So they're not sold on the full race versions, in terms of "progress". I'm tired of explaining it, and you'll continue to restate what you believe anyway. The weather is better here today, and it's finally stopped raining. I'll be going out on my own preference shortly. You're on your own for what you want to do.
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Black Inc integrated bar/stem $650. (road bike 1)
Black Inc stem $300 + Black Inc bars $300 (road bike 2)
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You're quoting the cheapest you can find. Definitely not top level. Plenty of them out there above that $600 price. Just checked A-zon. You can get a Kalloy stem and handlebar combo for about $60. Steel is even cheaper.
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To prevent this thread from shutting down and get things back to the original premise, I believe high-end bicycles are so expensive nowadays due to the following.
I'll say that there are a variety of factors contributing to this trend. One major factor is the rising cost of materials, particularly carbon fiber that are commonly used in bike frames. Additionally, advances in technology and design have made bikes more complex and sophisticated manufacture, which drives up the price. Lastly, increasing specialization has created a greater demand for high-end bikes, which manufacturers have capitalized on by producing pricier models with marginal gains in mind regardless of the cost to implement.
The additional expenses required to attain the slight improvements expected from premium bicycles significantly add to the end user's cost, particularly due to the limited quantities involved. It's important to factor in all the tooling and development costs.
I agree that marketing plays a role in these increased costs. However, marketing now focuses on product differentiation through features implemented and unique designs rather than in the past when marketing was primarily focused on the brand and brand reputation.
Dismissing the advancements made in modern bicycles as something the average consumer cannot appreciate is ludicrous. It's a tired argument that suggests things were better in the past, when in reality, progress should be celebrated.
I'll say that there are a variety of factors contributing to this trend. One major factor is the rising cost of materials, particularly carbon fiber that are commonly used in bike frames. Additionally, advances in technology and design have made bikes more complex and sophisticated manufacture, which drives up the price. Lastly, increasing specialization has created a greater demand for high-end bikes, which manufacturers have capitalized on by producing pricier models with marginal gains in mind regardless of the cost to implement.
The additional expenses required to attain the slight improvements expected from premium bicycles significantly add to the end user's cost, particularly due to the limited quantities involved. It's important to factor in all the tooling and development costs.
I agree that marketing plays a role in these increased costs. However, marketing now focuses on product differentiation through features implemented and unique designs rather than in the past when marketing was primarily focused on the brand and brand reputation.
Dismissing the advancements made in modern bicycles as something the average consumer cannot appreciate is ludicrous. It's a tired argument that suggests things were better in the past, when in reality, progress should be celebrated.
They could hire Grant Petersen to help them back away from the high-end market, maybe, but doing so didn't work out particularly well for Bridgestone.
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An additional factor: as in many other categories (the example of the highest-performance cars comes mind), the machines that require the greatest investment in high tech are the ones that are bought in the smallest numbers. Some of us might consider the benefits resulting from the investment to be pitifully minimal, especially in the case the most expensive bicycles, and the return on that investment is likely fairly minimal, too, but I don't see that the companies making the bikes have much choice.
They could hire Grant Petersen to help them back away from the high-end market, maybe, but doing so didn't work out particularly well for Bridgestone.
They could hire Grant Petersen to help them back away from the high-end market, maybe, but doing so didn't work out particularly well for Bridgestone.
My company uses GM work vans. Before that crisis, they came with Firestone tires. Those were good tires. After that, it was expensive Bridgestones, or another brand.
Last edited by seypat; 04-06-24 at 01:05 PM.
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...if we're at the part where brutal honesty enters the picture, the revelation that the same guys pushing the overwhelming advantages, brought to the contemporary pro race scene by the top end CF bikes, are not actually using them, has provided me with great merriment. So I guess we both got a good laugh.
I can certainly relate. Of the bicycles I ride here most regularly, 2/3 of them are of the slightly longer wheelbase, sport touring geometry you seem to favor.
I just do not understand, personally, why you insist on projecting this idea of "derision" of what others choose to ride onto me. Derision is kind of what you do, in these threads. Although I admit you're not the worst offender.
I can certainly relate. Of the bicycles I ride here most regularly, 2/3 of them are of the slightly longer wheelbase, sport touring geometry you seem to favor.
I just do not understand, personally, why you insist on projecting this idea of "derision" of what others choose to ride onto me. Derision is kind of what you do, in these threads. Although I admit you're not the worst offender.
I do however have a low tolerance for the complete bs a vocal minority (no vast hordes have been mentioned, except by you) of the vintage guys often spout when they are very much deriding newer bike tech. At that point I simply defend the newer tech. You won’t find me on the C&V forum harping on about how I think new bikes are superior. But it doesn’t seem to work in reverse. For example at the moment I’m fed up of hearing about how amazing tubular tyres are and just a few posts above we now have proof that electronic shifting must be garbage because of some 4 year old viral YouTube video of a pro having a problem with it.
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BS. Ritchey SuperLogic are some of the best components on the market. The major brands offer integrated cockpits in the same price range.
So what? Low-end, old tech stuff will always be cheap. High-end, new tech stuff will be expensive. This is not surprising.
The "high-end integrated bar + stem is way more expensive than high-end but separate bar + stem" observation is BS.
The "high-end integrated bar + stem is way more expensive than high-end but separate bar + stem" observation is BS.
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I did actually because I had been using disc brakes on mountain bikes since around the turn of the century. When I got back into road biking in 2019 I was pleased to see disc brakes were now available on road bikes too. It was one of the first tick boxes on my road bike shortlist.
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BS. Ritchey SuperLogic are some of the best components on the market. The major brands offer integrated cockpits in the same price range.
So what? Low-end, old tech stuff will always be cheap. High-end, new tech stuff will be expensive. This is not surprising.
The "high-end integrated bar + stem is way more expensive than high-end but separate bar + stem" observation is BS.
So what? Low-end, old tech stuff will always be cheap. High-end, new tech stuff will be expensive. This is not surprising.
The "high-end integrated bar + stem is way more expensive than high-end but separate bar + stem" observation is BS.
Speaking of super high tech advancements, we've went from a multi piece adjustable stem/handlebar system of one material, to a multi piece adjustable system of another material, to a one piece non adjustable system of another material. The best part is, the one piece non adjustable system costs what, 10-15 times the cost of the previous systems.
Last edited by seypat; 04-06-24 at 01:25 PM.
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An additional factor: as in many other categories (the example of the highest-performance cars comes mind), the machines that require the greatest investment in high tech are the ones that are bought in the smallest numbers. Some of us might consider the benefits resulting from the investment to be pitifully minimal, especially in the case the most expensive bicycles, and the return on that investment is likely fairly minimal, too, but I don't see that the companies making the bikes have much choice.
They could hire Grant Petersen to help them back away from the high-end market, maybe, but doing so didn't work out particularly well for Bridgestone.
They could hire Grant Petersen to help them back away from the high-end market, maybe, but doing so didn't work out particularly well for Bridgestone.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 04-06-24 at 01:22 PM.
#518
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#519
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Here's my statement again. I didn't say anything about quality levels good or bad. I'm not even the one that established the time frame discussed in this thread. One of you guys did. Tell me exactly what is it about my statement as it is written that isn't true. I can easily find stem/handlebar combos examples under $50.
A "previous system" is separate bar & stem.
The difference in cost between this "current system" and the "previous system" is minimal, as demonstrated.
Therefore, your claim that there is a 10-15 times difference between "current system" (integrated bar & stem) and "previous systems" (separate bar & stem) is disproven.
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The "current system" is integrated bar & stem.
A "previous system" is separate bar & stem.
The difference in cost between this "current system" and the "previous system" is minimal, as demonstrated.
Therefore, your claim that there is a 10-15 times difference between "current system" (integrated bar & stem) and "previous systems" (separate bar & stem) is disproven.
A "previous system" is separate bar & stem.
The difference in cost between this "current system" and the "previous system" is minimal, as demonstrated.
Therefore, your claim that there is a 10-15 times difference between "current system" (integrated bar & stem) and "previous systems" (separate bar & stem) is disproven.
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For example at the moment I’m fed up of hearing about how amazing tubular tyres are and just a few posts above we now have proof that electronic shifting must be garbage because of some 4 year old viral YouTube video of a pro having a problem with it.
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One of my road bikes has a separate alloy bar and stem. The other has a carbon integrated bar/stem. While the latter is considerably more expensive (not because it is integrated, but because of the completely different materials and manufacture) it is significantly more comfortable to use. I feel a lot more road buzz from the alloy bars, even with thicker cushioned tape. It’s a bigger difference than I expected.
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One of my road bikes has a separate alloy bar and stem. The other has a carbon integrated bar/stem. While the latter is considerably more expensive (not because it is integrated, but because of the completely different materials and manufacture) it is significantly more comfortable to use. I feel a lot more road buzz from the alloy bars, even with thicker cushioned tape. It’s a bigger difference than I expected.
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One has 32 mm tyres (alloy bars & stem) and the other has 30 mm tyres (carbon integrated bar/stem). They both ride well, but the carbon bars are simply better. If I was going to keep the other bike I would upgrade the bars as I think it’s worth the cost.