Fuel for 25 mile ride?
#101
Senior Member
No worries, we are just talking about different things.
Lots of racing cyclists are trying to manage weight for sure. But the biggest reason to become fat-adapted (ie train fasted or on minimal calories in order to force the body to use more efficiently used stored fat as fuel) is because when you are racing there are times it's logistically impossible to eat. Being fat-adapted puts you at competitive advantage when racing.
Personally I think trying to become better fat-adapted benefits most cyclists- because any of us could get in a situation out on the bike where you're out of food or sugar water. But for most people it's not necessary, so just always riding with food is fine too.
Personally, 25 miles I wouldn't eat & might not drink either. I for sure would if it were hot out though. I use electrolytes (in my bottles) in scenarios where I'll be sweating if the ride will be 3 hours or longer. Three hours is about my tipping point for eating too.
It all depends on how hard I'm working, I try to have it work out to a 1500ish cal deficit max on a long ride. So I know my burn rate (power meter) and I know my intake. From there it's just math.
Not that everybody should do the same necessarily. I do want to both manage weight & encourage fat adaptation.
Lots of racing cyclists are trying to manage weight for sure. But the biggest reason to become fat-adapted (ie train fasted or on minimal calories in order to force the body to use more efficiently used stored fat as fuel) is because when you are racing there are times it's logistically impossible to eat. Being fat-adapted puts you at competitive advantage when racing.
Personally I think trying to become better fat-adapted benefits most cyclists- because any of us could get in a situation out on the bike where you're out of food or sugar water. But for most people it's not necessary, so just always riding with food is fine too.
Personally, 25 miles I wouldn't eat & might not drink either. I for sure would if it were hot out though. I use electrolytes (in my bottles) in scenarios where I'll be sweating if the ride will be 3 hours or longer. Three hours is about my tipping point for eating too.
It all depends on how hard I'm working, I try to have it work out to a 1500ish cal deficit max on a long ride. So I know my burn rate (power meter) and I know my intake. From there it's just math.
Not that everybody should do the same necessarily. I do want to both manage weight & encourage fat adaptation.
I'm not a racing cyclist, just a road cyclist. I always bring food and drink, and stop to buy more when I need it.
#102
Nonsense
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Serious point here, I'm not just giving you $hit: should you really be "depleted" from previous day's training? That's what recovery is (partially) about, right?
You do your workout with as little calorie intake as you can get away with, and then you make sure you rehydrate & get the carbs/protein/calories into you before the next workout. Pretty rare that an amateur cyclist, racing or not, can't refuel completely before the next workout.
Or at least this is how middle aged ladies recover. You young bucks can get away with all kinds of $hit, it seems. Life isn't fair.
You do your workout with as little calorie intake as you can get away with, and then you make sure you rehydrate & get the carbs/protein/calories into you before the next workout. Pretty rare that an amateur cyclist, racing or not, can't refuel completely before the next workout.
Or at least this is how middle aged ladies recover. You young bucks can get away with all kinds of $hit, it seems. Life isn't fair.
My point though, was it doesn't hurt to bring some food and water with you even if the ride is short. The worst case scenario is you don't touch it, which just means you bring it back home with you.
#104
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Nothing but the half and half in my coffee. I don't eat much before I get out, unless it is late afternoon, or closer to 50 miles.
#105
my nice bike is at home
Haven't read through all 5 pages (!) I am sure it has been said on a ride so short it's what you have eaten before the ride that morning ( that day) or the night before that will influence the ride. A bit over 25 miles and its good to have something to knosh on. Anyway, what ever it is you ingest.. especially you 'gel' / 'goo' addicts don't leave your mess of wrappers all over the place ! If the wrapper is not in your pocket when you get home you f#@%ed up.
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My understanding is that it means training your body to use fat rather than glycogen as its main fuel for longer periods and at higher intensities. Long, moderate intensity rides in a fasted state trains that adaptation.
#107
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Man, amen to that. I'm finding those wrappers all over our local mountain bike trails and it certainly isn't the hikers leaving them behind.
#108
Senior Member
I'm OK being sugar adapted.
#109
Senior Member
So yesterday a typical food /cycling weekday. No carb loading, no splurging. Today I fasted all day, had coffee (black) for breakfast, 8 ounces of water around 9 am, a diet coke at 2 pm, went for a 25 mile ride with no water and no food. Absolutely no problems, fast / typical weekday ride for me.
Conclusion, for this cyclist, and I emphasize this, 25 miles without food, or water and even on a days fast is completely doable with energy to burn. Average speed was 18.5.
Conclusion, for this cyclist, and I emphasize this, 25 miles without food, or water and even on a days fast is completely doable with energy to burn. Average speed was 18.5.
#110
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10 years ago, Thomas Chapple wrote Base Building for Cyclists and basically proved that this worked in his coaching practice. Since then, base building has become even more scientific, but the principle is that you work on getting your fat burning going early in the year and then add intensity which stimulates the carb burning machinery. Some riders will do endurance blocks during the season to add some base back in when fat burning decreases from doing a lot of intensity. Armstrong was famous for going out on 6 hour rides in December with only water.
I went on a hard 2.5 hour ride today, 39 miles, 2200', and drank about 75 calories of sports drink. I'm not nuts about it, I just want to ride well. My performance didn't drop off: I had PRs on the last 2 hills.
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#111
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I use Tailwind in my water bottles. 2 scoops per bottle. I fill up both bottles before I leave and that's plenty for me for 25 miles.
I did an 80 mile ride a few weekends ago and here is how I fueled for it:
breakfast of 2 peanut butter and banana on wheat sandwiches
2 water bottles with 2 scoops of tailwind in each bottle
carried 4 scoops of tailwind for 2 water bottle refills
1 peanut butter and banana on wheat sandwich cut in half (i ate each half separately)
2 regular water bottle refills at the end without tailwind
Here's a link to the stuff: Tailwind Nutrition
I did an 80 mile ride a few weekends ago and here is how I fueled for it:
breakfast of 2 peanut butter and banana on wheat sandwiches
2 water bottles with 2 scoops of tailwind in each bottle
carried 4 scoops of tailwind for 2 water bottle refills
1 peanut butter and banana on wheat sandwich cut in half (i ate each half separately)
2 regular water bottle refills at the end without tailwind
Here's a link to the stuff: Tailwind Nutrition
#112
Senior Member
Not true. Being in ketosis would mean that your glycogen was gone because you had eaten almost no carbs for days, probably weeks. Carb adapted is not antithetical to being fat adapted. Everyone who's not eating LCHF and thus is in ketosis burns both, all the time. However if you can increase your ability to burn fat, you can increase your average watts on long rides.
10 years ago, Thomas Chapple wrote Base Building for Cyclists and basically proved that this worked in his coaching practice. Since then, base building has become even more scientific, but the principle is that you work on getting your fat burning going early in the year and then add intensity which stimulates the carb burning machinery. Some riders will do endurance blocks during the season to add some base back in when fat burning decreases from doing a lot of intensity. Armstrong was famous for going out on 6 hour rides in December with only water.
I went on a hard 2.5 hour ride today, 39 miles, 2200', and drank about 75 calories of sports drink. I'm not nuts about it, I just want to ride well. My performance didn't drop off: I had PRs on the last 2 hills.
10 years ago, Thomas Chapple wrote Base Building for Cyclists and basically proved that this worked in his coaching practice. Since then, base building has become even more scientific, but the principle is that you work on getting your fat burning going early in the year and then add intensity which stimulates the carb burning machinery. Some riders will do endurance blocks during the season to add some base back in when fat burning decreases from doing a lot of intensity. Armstrong was famous for going out on 6 hour rides in December with only water.
I went on a hard 2.5 hour ride today, 39 miles, 2200', and drank about 75 calories of sports drink. I'm not nuts about it, I just want to ride well. My performance didn't drop off: I had PRs on the last 2 hills.
#114
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I am referring to doing what you can with your training to improve your body's ability to mobilize fat as a fuel source while exercising. The reason you'd do this is because you have enough stored fat to last way beyond your caloric needs for any normal cycling event (I'm not talking about super ultra events like RAAM). Whereas you have real limits in the amount of stored glycogen you have, it lasts just a few hours at intense levels of exercise.
If you're interested in reading more about it, here's a good link: Joe Friel - Becoming a Better Fat Burner
Cheers.
#115
Senior Member
That's not what I was referring to, FYI.
I am referring to doing what you can with your training to improve your body's ability to mobilize fat as a fuel source while exercising. The reason you'd do this is because you have enough stored fat to last way beyond your caloric needs for any normal cycling event (I'm not talking about super ultra events like RAAM). Whereas you have real limits in the amount of stored glycogen you have, it lasts just a few hours at intense levels of exercise.
If you're interested in reading more about it, here's a good link: Joe Friel - Becoming a Better Fat Burner
Cheers.
I am referring to doing what you can with your training to improve your body's ability to mobilize fat as a fuel source while exercising. The reason you'd do this is because you have enough stored fat to last way beyond your caloric needs for any normal cycling event (I'm not talking about super ultra events like RAAM). Whereas you have real limits in the amount of stored glycogen you have, it lasts just a few hours at intense levels of exercise.
If you're interested in reading more about it, here's a good link: Joe Friel - Becoming a Better Fat Burner
Cheers.
#116
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Ketosis is a nutritional process characterised by serum concentrations of ketone bodies over 0.5 mM, with low and stable levels of insulin and blood glucose.[1][2] It is almost always generalized with hyperketonemia, that is, an elevated level of ketone bodies in the blood throughout the body. Ketone bodies are formed by ketogenesis when liver glycogen stores are depleted (or from metabolising medium-chain triglycerides[3]).
If the diet is changed from one that is high in carbohydrates to one that does not provide sufficient carbohydrate to replenish glycogen stores, the body goes through a set of stages to enter ketosis.
You only go into ketosis if you don't consume carbs. I haven't seen folks in this particular thread advocating that one should exhaust liver or muscle glycogen. Quite the contrary. If I do a real base ride and keep my effort below the first ventilation threshold (VT1), I will burn very little carbs, so I'll return with my liver and muscle glycogen almost intact. OTOH if I go out hard like I did today, that's not a "base ride." I burned a fair bit of glycogen and when I got back home, I consumed carbs to help replenish that glycogen enough so that I can work out again tomorrow. My average HR was 89% of my lactate threshold for a 2:22 ride. I could do that on 75 calories (which I didn't really need) because I've done a lot of base work and because I started out with good glycogen stores. I realize that I'm not a great example because I don't train as much or as consistently as many people here do.
It was a "thing" for a few years to try to shift the body toward increased fat burning by eating low carb. That was proven not to be of any performance benefit. However since Chappel, it's been proven that athletes can shift toward increased fat burning through fasted base training without altering their base diet, and that this does benefit performance.
It's not an "or" kind of thing. It's a "both" kind of thing. To ride strong, we need to be able to efficiently burn both fats and carbs.
There's a good discussion of fasted cardio training IMO, here: The Best Cardio Tips To Help You Burn Stubborn Fat!
I always drink a scoop of whey protein in water before I go out for any ride.
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#117
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Did you actually read the blog post? Because it doesn't prescribe a "diet". It describes a method of training to alter the way in which you use energy while exercising.
You may continue to believe what you want of course. But to become ketotic (as measured by laboratory work, not by a lay persons guess that he/she is ketotic) takes very extreme carb restriction throughout the day as a lifestyle change. It's very hard to accomplish and requires much discipline with your diet.
I have been training this way for almost 2 years now & have had comprehensive bloodwork run annually. I'm not ketotic.
But again, no harm in your exercising with carbs, if that's what you prefer to do. Many people fuel quite successfully that way.
You may continue to believe what you want of course. But to become ketotic (as measured by laboratory work, not by a lay persons guess that he/she is ketotic) takes very extreme carb restriction throughout the day as a lifestyle change. It's very hard to accomplish and requires much discipline with your diet.
I have been training this way for almost 2 years now & have had comprehensive bloodwork run annually. I'm not ketotic.
But again, no harm in your exercising with carbs, if that's what you prefer to do. Many people fuel quite successfully that way.
#118
Senior Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis
You only go into ketosis if you don't consume carbs. I haven't seen folks in this particular thread advocating that one should exhaust liver or muscle glycogen. Quite the contrary. If I do a real base ride and keep my effort below the first ventilation threshold (VT1), I will burn very little carbs, so I'll return with my liver and muscle glycogen almost intact. OTOH if I go out hard like I did today, that's not a "base ride." I burned a fair bit of glycogen and when I got back home, I consumed carbs to help replenish that glycogen enough so that I can work out again tomorrow. My average HR was 89% of my lactate threshold for a 2:22 ride. I could do that on 75 calories (which I didn't really need) because I've done a lot of base work and because I started out with good glycogen stores. I realize that I'm not a great example because I don't train as much or as consistently as many people here do.
It was a "thing" for a few years to try to shift the body toward increased fat burning by eating low carb. That was proven not to be of any performance benefit. However since Chappel, it's been proven that athletes can shift toward increased fat burning through fasted base training without altering their base diet, and that this does benefit performance.
It's not an "or" kind of thing. It's a "both" kind of thing. To ride strong, we need to be able to efficiently burn both fats and carbs.
There's a good discussion of fasted cardio training IMO, here: The Best Cardio Tips To Help You Burn Stubborn Fat!
I always drink a scoop of whey protein in water before I go out for any ride.
You only go into ketosis if you don't consume carbs. I haven't seen folks in this particular thread advocating that one should exhaust liver or muscle glycogen. Quite the contrary. If I do a real base ride and keep my effort below the first ventilation threshold (VT1), I will burn very little carbs, so I'll return with my liver and muscle glycogen almost intact. OTOH if I go out hard like I did today, that's not a "base ride." I burned a fair bit of glycogen and when I got back home, I consumed carbs to help replenish that glycogen enough so that I can work out again tomorrow. My average HR was 89% of my lactate threshold for a 2:22 ride. I could do that on 75 calories (which I didn't really need) because I've done a lot of base work and because I started out with good glycogen stores. I realize that I'm not a great example because I don't train as much or as consistently as many people here do.
It was a "thing" for a few years to try to shift the body toward increased fat burning by eating low carb. That was proven not to be of any performance benefit. However since Chappel, it's been proven that athletes can shift toward increased fat burning through fasted base training without altering their base diet, and that this does benefit performance.
It's not an "or" kind of thing. It's a "both" kind of thing. To ride strong, we need to be able to efficiently burn both fats and carbs.
There's a good discussion of fasted cardio training IMO, here: The Best Cardio Tips To Help You Burn Stubborn Fat!
I always drink a scoop of whey protein in water before I go out for any ride.
It's all the same stuff. If you dig it, just dig it.
#119
Senior Member
Did you actually read the blog post? Because it doesn't prescribe a "diet". It describes a method of training to alter the way in which you use energy while exercising.
You may continue to believe what you want of course. But to become ketotic (as measured by laboratory work, not by a lay persons guess that he/she is ketotic) takes very extreme carb restriction throughout the day as a lifestyle change. It's very hard to accomplish and requires much discipline with your diet.
I have been training this way for almost 2 years now & have had comprehensive bloodwork run annually. I'm not ketotic.
But again, no harm in your exercising with carbs, if that's what you prefer to do. Many people fuel quite successfully that way.
You may continue to believe what you want of course. But to become ketotic (as measured by laboratory work, not by a lay persons guess that he/she is ketotic) takes very extreme carb restriction throughout the day as a lifestyle change. It's very hard to accomplish and requires much discipline with your diet.
I have been training this way for almost 2 years now & have had comprehensive bloodwork run annually. I'm not ketotic.
But again, no harm in your exercising with carbs, if that's what you prefer to do. Many people fuel quite successfully that way.
#120
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None of the methods discussed restrict carbs to the extent that the patient would be living life in a state of ketosis.
A ketogenic diet is one in which carbs are restricted to very low levels (perhaps 10% of the diet mentioned in the blog post) in order to induce a permanent state of ketosis in which the body burns fat as fuel all the time, because it's carb-depleted.
Different type of diet vs what Friel mentions in his article.
#121
Senior Member
The blog article is not recommending a diet. It discusses methods of becoming fat-adapted, and that coach looks for a specific macronutrient composition to result in adequate muscle glycogen stores & better ability to mobilize fat as a fuel source.
None of the methods discussed restrict carbs to the extent that the patient would be living life in a state of ketosis.
A ketogenic diet is one in which carbs are restricted to very low levels (perhaps 10% of the diet mentioned in the blog post) in order to induce a permanent state of ketosis in which the body burns fat as fuel all the time, because it's carb-depleted.
Different type of diet vs what Friel mentions in his article.
None of the methods discussed restrict carbs to the extent that the patient would be living life in a state of ketosis.
A ketogenic diet is one in which carbs are restricted to very low levels (perhaps 10% of the diet mentioned in the blog post) in order to induce a permanent state of ketosis in which the body burns fat as fuel all the time, because it's carb-depleted.
Different type of diet vs what Friel mentions in his article.
There are four options suggested here to improve your body’s capacity for using fat for fuel (changing genetics isn’t an option – yet). No one knows for sure, as I suspect this has never been studied, but I believe the most effective are your chronic diet and training.
#122
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You do not become ketotic if you consume sufficient carbs. The diet Friel mentions contains plenty of carbs. It is very very difficult to consume so little carb in a typical American diet so as to maintain a ketotic state and the individuals that can actually accomplish this are few and far between.
#123
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I have a good friend who nursed her mother as the woman slowly died of heart disease. Screwed up her diet for the rest of her life. One of my favorite sayings is that one way or the other, we are condemned to repeat the lives of our parents.
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Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 09-29-16 at 08:11 AM.
#124
Senior Member
Ok, I'm going to be out after this final comment, as you seem to be a willfully ignorant individual.
You do not become ketotic if you consume sufficient carbs. The diet Friel mentions contains plenty of carbs. It is very very difficult to consume so little carb in a typical American diet so as to maintain a ketotic state and the individuals that can actually accomplish this are few and far between.
You do not become ketotic if you consume sufficient carbs. The diet Friel mentions contains plenty of carbs. It is very very difficult to consume so little carb in a typical American diet so as to maintain a ketotic state and the individuals that can actually accomplish this are few and far between.
And we're sorry about your parents. That must have been tough.
I have a good friend who nursed her mother as the woman slowly died of heart disease. Screwed up her diet for the rest of her life. One of my favorite sayings is that one way or the other, we are condemned to repeat the lives of our parents.
I have a good friend who nursed her mother as the woman slowly died of heart disease. Screwed up her diet for the rest of her life. One of my favorite sayings is that one way or the other, we are condemned to repeat the lives of our parents.
#125
Senior Member
You're a aren't you. I thought so.