63rickert

An entire generation of cyclists attempted to pedal as Anquetil pedaled. No one else could do it. I am old enough to remember that. Tried to do it myself. Watched the films (not video) of Anquetil's feet many times. Were it so simple as your explanation someone else would have been able to do it.

Somewhat different point but current notions of high gear are real different than in 50s. Anquetil shocked the peloton and public by using a gear as huge as 52x14. By current standards he was always spinning.

ncr

Videos of his pedalling technique reveal absolutely nothing about what's involved, it has to be independently discovered, I discovered it while searching for a technique that would enable me to combine arm and leg power when riding in an aero drops position. It's not simple, even after getting the basic objectives it took me years to perfect and takes a lot of concentration before you can get that simultaneous switchover of maximal force application at 11 o'c. The technique makes maximal use of the strongest muscle in the lower body (Soleus), all other cyclists leave it almost lying idle. Quoting from Hinault's book, " You have to realize Anquetil perfected his technique in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him". Equipment and road surfaces were very different in the 50's and early 60's
P.S. Unlike today's bike fitters who have no clear guidelines, for Anquetil's technique the pulling line between shoulder and hand on drops has to be parallel to the peak torque application direction line. That explains his higher handlebar setting than what was customary for that time.

63rickert

Ok, you have my attention. Will bookmark this and see what I can figure out. It is not obvious but I will believe you are on to something.

Yes, equipment and roads were different. You direct us to this because......?

Anquetil had his technique very early on, at least from his first GP des Nations That course back then was astonishing. Cobbled streets with trolley tracks to be double jumped at low angles and not much that was easy. Don't think many current pros would even attempt it.

Carbonfiberboy 

I enjoy pedaling discussion so here's some more.
.
It just occurred to me: his hour gear was 52 X 15 or 91 g.i. I've ridden a fair bit with a fellow who has ridden fixed with that g.i. over Cascade mountain passes and on ~200 mile mountain endurance races. AFAIK he still holds some local fixie records. It helps a lot to be talented.

Oh - and he doesn't dope. Anquetil was a famous self-admitted doper. He doped on all his competitive rides. I believe one attempted hour record was disallowed over his doping.

My friend's pedaling style is like everyone else's these days. He doesn't point his toes. Anquetil drug his feet over the top by his heels, toe down, which forced him to ride with a higher saddle and point his toes at the bottom, using his calf muscles there to push back rather than pull back. If one raises the toe before pushing the foot over the top, it all takes less energy and creates less resistance. Hence almost no one does toe-down anymore. Degrees of applied pedal force is the same, maybe more. There was a fad for toe-down on this side of the pond, pushed by some American bike racers and theorists, but that faded long ago.

More pedaling. Armstrong Pantani;
I learned how to pedal OOS by watching Armstrong. See how he lifts the shoe with the heel cup, then flips the toe up as he goes over the top. I just can't pedal that gear or that cadence, either one.

Big Mig:

Merckx, with excellent video of his feet:

ncr

Where you have to use energy to do little more than push your idling foot over the top, with his technique Anquetil was not only pushing his working foot over the top, he was also applying the same power to his cranks there as he, you or anybody else could apply to the cranks at 3 o'c.

Carbonfiberboy 

Exactly. The whole idea of maintaining power for more of the pedal stroke is to reduce the down-force at 3 o'clock, thus increasing endurance for the same power. So don't push your idling foot over the top, rather lift your toe and try to kick the dog off your front wheel as the foot goes forward over the top. Likewise, you can pull back on your heel cup at the bottom since your ankle's relaxed. Personally, I don't consciously push down on the pedals at all except for short periods on steep pitches.

Here's a good workout to help getting used to applying force all the way around the circle: https://trainright.com/climb-faster-workout-cycling/

No upper body movement, as little bar force as possible, all done with the legs.

ncr

You still don't get it. How does the greatest crank torque you can produce by that kicking action over the top compare with the greatest torque you can produce by only pushing down around 3 o'c. By using muscles as Anquetil used them in flat time trials it will be the same. For over a century engineers and scientists have been searching for equipment (odd shaped cranks and chainrings) that will eliminate the dead spot sector (11-1 o'c) which is an impossible task, while all this time the perfect solution lay in the powerful muscles below the knee. Only problem is they don't know how to use them. There are four different pedalling techniques that I know of and there is an ideal time or place for each of them. Circular is the weakest and least efficient. Merckx used the heel down mashing style and also used drugs.

Carbonfiberboy 

It helps to think about it more technically. Riders are always talking about how much power they produce. The thing is, there are many numbers associated with power production: peak power, 1 minute power, 5 minute power, functional power threshold, etc. This is because power = work/time. Thus a rider's power varies with time because the amount of work we can do varies with time. Work is the limiter and it's limited by a rider's energy production system. Given that, work = force * distance. In this case, distance being measured around the pedal circle and force is the force vector applied to the pedal which is normal to the circle.

If work is a constant, then if more force is applied in one place on the pedal circle, less force must be applied elsewhere. You are apparently claiming that Anquetil applied equal force through a long arc and didn't increase force at 3 o'clock. Uh, so why can't anyone do that? It's not hard, just takes practice. You can't be claiming that he produced more force at the top and at 3 o/clock because that would mean more work was done, and as above, work is a constant determined by metabolic ability, not by pedaling motion.

Therefore as I've already said, one can with practice apply equal force throughout the pedal arc simply by not pushing down harder at 3 o:clock. Which is what Anquetil did. The fact of his dominance is explained therefore not by pedaling but by metabolic ability. It's not magic. I get it that there's a whole subculture of people who wish they could turn lead into gold with a wave of their feet, but it's not happening. First you have to be Anquetil to go that fast. Many others have been faster with different pedaling techniques, some of them even riding clean. All the TdF speed records have been set since 1997.

ncr

Yes that's what he did, he increased power at 12,1 and 2 o'c to equal max power at 3 o'c. He did this with a powerful combination of glute, soleus, upper and lower leg biarticular muscles and plantar flexion force. Because that plantar flexion force was supplied by the most fatigue resistant muscle in the body, it made his constant high gear high power output sustainable in time trials. He applied power to each leg for 180 deg. of the circle. This enabled him to give total concentration to each leg in turn. Most recent research on biarticular muscles and plantar flexion might help explain why pedalling researchers don't know how to use this powerful combination of muscles.

"The extremities of the human body contain several bi-articular muscles. The actions produced by muscles at the joints they cross are greatly influenced by joint moment arms and muscle length. These factors are dynamic and subject to change as joint angles are altered. Therefore, to more completely understand the actions of such muscles, the angles of both joints must be manipulated. This report reviews investigations, which have explored the actions of two bi-articular muscles of the lower extremities (gastrocnemius and rectus femoris) as the joints they cross are moved into various combinations of angles. The findings have both clinical and physical performance ramifications.
Introduction
Bi-articular muscles are commonly found in the upper and lower extremities of the human body. These muscles generally cross two joints and influence movement at both. The rectus femoris (RF) spans the hip and knee, and the gastrocnemius (GA) crosses the knee and ankle. The actions of these muscles at their primary joints have been known for well over 100 years. The RF is an extensor of the leg, and the GA is a powerful plantarflexor. The descriptions of these particular actions have been relatively unchanged for many years and appear in most anatomy textbooks. However, these muscle action descriptions do not consider the influence the second joint may have on the muscle’s action at the primary joint, or vice versa. For example, considering the GA action at the ankle, how does the plantarflexion (PF) torque it generates change as the angles of the knee and ankle change? At what combination does muscular insufficiency arise? Advances in technology have made it possible to answer questions of this type, resulting in more detailed descriptions of the bi-articular muscles of the extremities."

This is the powerful muscle ignored by all cyclists.
" The action of the calf muscles, including the soleus, is plantar flexion of the foot (that is, they increase the angle between the foot and the leg). They are powerful muscles and are vital in walking, running, and keeping balance. The soleus specifically plays an important role in maintaining standing posture; if not for its constant pull, the body would fall forward.

Also, in upright posture, the soleus is responsible for pumping venous blood back into the heart from the periphery, and is often called the skeletal-muscle pump, peripheral heart or the sural (tricipital) pump.

Soleus muscles have a higher proportion of slow muscle fibers than many other muscles. In some animals, such as the guinea pig and cat, soleus consists of 100% slow muscle fibers. Human soleus fiber composition is quite variable, containing between 60 and 100% slow fibers.

The soleus is the most effective muscle for plantar flexion in a bent knee position *. This is because the gastrocnemius originates on the femur, so bending the leg limits its effective tension. During regular movement (i.e., walking) the soleus is the primary muscle utilized for plantar flexion due to the slow twitch fibers resisting fatigue."
"PF forces can be quite high. It is estimated that young males can generate PF torque ranging between 1,000 to 1,780 N."

Carbonfiberboy 

Got it.

Tom L

this thread has helped me , for some reason last summer, I came up with the idea to point my toe down at the bottom of my pedal stroke and sweep back to get my calves and hamstrings into the pedaling game more. I felt that I was not using the back half of my legs and therefore loosing some power, I tend to over think things and the techniques of cycling have been very interesting for me as a fairly new rider. so this has gone on for the last almost year, and I have been experiencing
uncomfortable seat experiences and numb hands. always trying to fix my fit, and improve it, which works for a little
while and then always returns, I didn't think about the fact that I was also jamming myself forward and into the seat
as a result.
so something as easy as keeping my foot level or slightly down at the bottom of the stroke is causing me to lift up on my torso, and relieve pressure on my butt, and my hands.
something so simple, but I never gave a flatter foot much thought.
the last two weeks have been great on the bike because of it. no seat pain, hands are only going slightly numb after an hour or so, speed is up, wattage is up, and the workouts have been easier,
so thanks for all the input, although not the original intention of the thread, It has helped me in big way

Carbonfiberboy 

Here's the Numb Hands post: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post12953035

Look at the positions of the riders in that post. Make your position more like theirs. Move your saddle back until, while pedaling, you can briefly lift your hands off the bars without sliding forward on the saddle. Have plenty of reach - upper arms make 90° angle with your straight torso.

Feel the heel cup. That's how to engage your hams.

Lemond1985

It was interesting how much respect Jacques Anquetil had in this thread, compared to the Bicycling article from 1969 posted over at C&V.

How he won five Tours despite being "a poor sprinter" and "an average climber", I will never know.

Dean V

You can theorise about pedalling technique all day but is there actually any data to prove that using anything other than what comes naturally has improved a riders performance?
You could even just do an FTP test and then a few days later repeat using some of these point your toes here, push here, pull here ideas and see how much higher your FTP is due to all the extra efficiency and muscle recruitment

GailT

Yep, and I love the comment that Anquetil "has won nothing of importance lately", LOL.

canklecat

Anquetil was the guy French fans loved to hate during his peak. But French fans hated Merckx when he was too successful. And Hinault, because he wasn't Merckx and played the part of the badger a little too enthusiastically. (Insert France hates winning jokes here.)

canklecat

Good point. It might be possible with a lot of effort to change a pedaling style. But it would need to be baked in early on. It's really hard to change as we age.

In observing sports, I've seen some athletes try to change their stripes to accommodate age or injuries. But usually when they're tired or stressed they'll relapse to their earlier or more natural style.

Lemond1985

Sometimes cyclists re-invent themselves. Look at Laurent Jalabert before and after his accident. He had been a sprinter, but came back as a climber. Armstrong lost 20 lbs post-cancer, and went from a punchy power rider, to an all-arounder. Or Ekimov, he set dozens of records on the track, then rode the Tour de France and Classics for 15 or so years.

rubiksoval

Most all GC riders are poor sprinters.

Carbonfiberboy 

You put your finger right on the problem: it takes many months, perhaps years, to perfect the unthinking neuromuscular coordination and the conditioning of all the pedaling muscles in new ranges of motion. That's why the subject is interesting. It it was easy to figure out, everyone would know the answer. And of course there's that issue of talent which is also involved with power production of the various muscles in various ranges of motion due to tendon placement, natural muscular adaptions, etc. So maybe there isn't an answer.

ncr

Anquetil did not like cycling, he did it for financial gain and after retiring from the sport never rode a bike again. He concentrated on races he believed he could win. His secret weapon was his high gear pedalling technique which made him unbeatable against the clock in non climbing time trials, because compared to the natural pedalling of other riders it gave him minutes of extra pedalling time at high power output in each of these TT's. It was not suitable for low gear climbing and because of its much higher gear effect was not suitable for sprinting.

ncr

You don't have to change your pedalling style, you can learn an extra one for use where it would be more suitable. Swimmers have several techniques. Leaving the cost aside, why do so many road racers hate riding time trials?

canklecat

Oh, sure, even we old folks can learn new tricks. It just takes more effort.

I'm in physical therapy again (old and new injuries, back, neck and shoulder) to unlearn some bad habits. First thing my physical therapist said was "Are you a cyclist?" Yeah, I said. "I could tell. That hunched shoulders-forward posture. Let's work on that." After three weeks it's helping.

If I could afford it I'd get some sessions with an expert cycling trainer. No can do for now, but maybe later this year. For now I'm working on the upper body. I don't have any serious problems with the legs, pedaling, etc., so any coaching in the transmission department from the hips to feet would probably amount to marginal gains. It's mostly the upper body and engine that need work now.

No idea why some racers might dislike time trials. If I ever compete again it'll be only time trials. No more crits for me, thanks. Those were fun when I was in my teens and 20s, but I don't bounce anymore. Now I break when I fall. If I wipe out in a time trial, that's all my fault.

I suspect the differences are mostly psychological/sociological makeup. Some of my older cycling friends who still race are gregarious folks and enjoy the companionship of a fast group ride or crit. I struggle with the ebb and flow of fast group rides and crits so I mostly train solo. I don't mind the pain of maxing out, but I prefer it to be on my own or with one or two good friends rather than a group.

Odd thing, my average speeds and times over the same 20-30 mile routes are the same as the folks in the fast group rides. On some segments I'm faster, sometimes much faster. But I suck at climbing. So even if we finish at roughly the same time, I spend most of my time looking at the receding group getting smaller and smaller, cussing to myself, hoping to catch 'em on a flat or downhill where they coast and I sprint like mad.

So rather than work on my climbing stamina in groups, I prefer to train solo and repeat the climbs that consistently thwart me.

Lemond1985

What are they doing to get you to stand up straighter? Something like this?

531Aussie

OH NO!! Noel Crowley (ncr) has also infiltrated this forum with his myths about Anquetil and pedalling technique . He's been challenged -- and arguably discredited -- a hundred times on this Cycling News Forum thread (and other forums) and, after more than ten years, is yet to come up with an ounce of proof that his "tricks" do anything, despite being reminded many times that all he has to do is some testing with a power metre. He calls himself "Back Door" on there, after formerly being "coapman" (I think he was banned, so he had to get back on through the 'back door').
The pedaling technique thread | Cyclingnews Forum

EDIT: Noel's been at it on Cycling News since 2011 (!!), back when he was "coapman". https://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12900

Here's a comment on the Road Bike Review Forum from way back in 2010!! but wait, there's more!!! At the bottom of this page is a few posts from way back in 2002!!!!!
https://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech/...rs/feb12.shtml

Take Noel's suggestions with a grain of salt, or even just as a form of amusement and light entertainment.