QuangVuong

Grabbed this piece of history off a member here! Its the Centurion Carbon-R bike. Its one of the first few lugged carbon frames around, and would date back to the late 80s. However the serial number on the rear dropout says 91C0165. Looking around, this wouls indicate possibly a '91 frame manufactured in Jan, and is the 165th frame made? Im unsure. Maybe one of you guys would know. Anyway, this bike came with a full RSX groupset which wouldnt have been out til 95. Most likely there had been a full upgrade later into its life. The RSX hubs are laced to Velocity Aerohead rims, which are Aussie. A Japanese manufactured frame would most liekly stick with Japanese components, and dont see why Velocity would be factory spec. Lastly, this frame was sold by Manly Cycle Centre, back when everyone had 7 digit phone numbers.

EDIT: Got some history on the frame now. Possibly a 89 model.
My plans are to keep everything as is. The clear coat of the carbon is suffering from UV degradation, so Ill remove the top coat, and will be recoating. The decals are stickers, so they'll be removed, and then scanned. Now I need to find a vinyl/sticker printing service. Any here able to do it? Or know someone who can? The RSX groupset will be overhauled, and then reinstalled.

Received it this arvo! Took it out, and stripped the last of the components off. Bare frame here














Bottom Bracket with an integrated cable guide. Does that 59x64 mean the angle of the tubes?


And serial number on rear dropout. Looking around, everyone says its on the BB, but as you can see, its not there, but on the dropout.


Anyway, decals have been removed, and Im in the process of scanning, and creating a file for someone to print.

Tomorrow, I will begin to strip the top coat. Once thats done, all the aluminium lugs and fork will be polished to mirror!

wearyourtruth

i LOVE old carbon lugged frames.

what are you using to strip the clear? i have a Look i'd love to strip the paint off of (it says "Look" on the bike 13 times) but i am afraid of damaging the carbon

Chombi

Wow!...the frame joints kinda looks ok, but I hope the evident surface degradation does not go any deeper than what might be just a clear coat paint over the CF tubes.... Your planned stripping is the correct approach to find out. If the peeling/yellowing stuff comes off and what comes up is stable, non-degraded resin impregnated CF, then the frame might be OK to proceed with restoration as a rider, but if the yellowing and delamintion is deeper than that, then the frame could be toast. The stripping and cleaning will also be a good opportunity to really check out the wheter the bonded joints are sound as it might reveal gaps and signs of pull out at the lug seams.
Don't know whether to feel diaapointed with the look of the bike or not as it does kinda show that the bike was used hard and often in its life so far and bl0ows out myths that these older CF frames cannot survive this long withoout any discombobulatiive/asplosive consequenses to the owner... If the bike is indeed a 90's model, there is a good chance that the manufacturer designed in some sort of isolation material between the CF tubes and lugs that will prevent electrolysis between the two material which will cause corrosion and breakdown of the glue in the joints. I do not see any signs of joint separation in the pics but a closer look at the joints after cleaning should confirm if they are OK.

I hope things do turn out well with your restoration as I can see the beauty of that CF frame under the wear and dirt on it....
59x64?? The nubmbers look strange as the 59 does not seem to be a size call out as the head tube seems to indicate something a little smaller in size, unless maybe they were able to use the same BB in a range of different sizes.
BTW, the frame looks very familiar, especially the "wishbone rear fork design. Was it a frame made by another company (like maybe Giant) for Centurion??
Tip....Please do not use the term "Jap" in your posts as it is an old, discriminatory term. Edit them off if you can and you might get more useful responses to your post....

Chombi.

QuangVuong

Tim, refer to the video, and text below.

Chombi, the top tube was pretty much the worst off from UV degradation. Look below at how easy it came off in the video. But it looks like the degradation hasnt reached any deeper than the surface of the carbon. I could tell as there would be 2 coats. The first came off with out much effort, and the second took a little more. Only the top tube and the head tube is where both coats came off without much effort. The joints are all good! But same with you, I am unsure if there was a pretective layer between the tubes and lug. Inside the BB and seat hole, I can see that they used some sort of white resin to glue everything together. If this was thick enough, I reckon it wouldve stopped any corrosion. Ah, one thing came to my notice though. Inside the BB, there are hex screws of some sort. They enter the tubes. I reckon they are some sort of expander(like the ones for the headsets). When tightened, they expand compressing the carbon tube to the lug. One a guess. This is only visible in the BB area though. The head tube is just the carbon tube, which no holes(maybe the CF tube was inserted into the lug afterwards), so Im not sure if theres a hex screw as well.

The guy I grabbed this frame off, got the frame from the original owner who bought it from Manly Cycles(one of the famous beaches from NSW, Australia). Im awaiting more info on its history. Once I get news on it, itll prob clear up a lot of things.

Yep, the frame is quite similar to the Giant Cadex frames, but I dont think they are the same. There are some differences which I can see from just pics. The head tube on this is a carbon tube, whereas the Giant has just a full aluminium one. This seatstay has somesort of pivot holding it, which the Giant doesnt. But everything else is very similar. Possibly the internal lug joints are different. THis I can see that there are those hex screws, but the Giant has some sort of x shape. Ive actually am waiting on one of those Cadex frames on the way as well. Hopefully itll arrive Monday. Dont have the frame, so cant tell, yet.

And is 'Jap' a discriminatory term? Ive always used it as an abbreviation with no ill intent.

Frame with decals removed. Might be a little hard to see, but look at where the decals would be. Those are the areas which are still new looking, and havent suffered from the UV.


Anyway, spent the day stripping the clear coat, which wasnt at all hard. Those who have enquired about going about it, heres how. There are a few options. You can go with chemicals, or sandpaper, or blades. I chose the latter, since chemicals would prob destroy the resin holding everything together. First you want a rug cutting blade, preferably with a handle. I did not have one, which slowed me down due to the extra effort put in. I would say, its best to get some cheapo blades, and not expensive ones which last forever. Two reasons for this, one being that its cheaper, and the other is the itll have a lower carbon content meaning its softer. It is softer than the carbon, so once you hit the carbon you will wear the blade, and not cut/damage the carbon. The top tube which had suffered the most damage from the UV, was so easy to strip. Water from a hose wouldve blasted it away. You can see this foryourself in the video. Once pretty much all of the clear coat has been removed, I then wet sanded the carbon. Used 600 grit paper around the areas under the stickers first to get rid of the coat which was a little hard to remove. Then I continued to sand the rest of the tubes incase I missed any small spots. The 600 turned into at least 2000 grit when I was done. This is a worry for some people, but carbon is a hard material. Sanding will take minimal amounts of carbon away, and its really the sandpaper that is being worn away. So unless youre using a really low grit paper with lots of effort, its really hard to stuff up the carbon.


Click to view video below. Look at how little effort I need to put in. But this was really only for the top tube and head tube. The seat tube, and rear triangle was a little hearder to remove, but wasnt as bad the the down tube. The downtube took forever to remove the coat since it wasnt really degrading. Overall, I took 3 hours to remove the coat. 30 mins for the top tube and 2 seat stays. Cut my finger cause I was speaking to my Dad whilst scraping. Took a 30 min break to buy some petrol to clean the groupset, not really so much cause of the cut. Came back and continued for 2.5 hours. I began off with one blunt blade cause I couldnt find any others, but when I reached the downtube, I had to find more blades, otherwise I wouldve broken my arm. With a new blade, it was so much easier to remove. So let that be a tip, ALWAYS USE A RELATIVELY SHARP BLADE! Use like a blade per tube.


You can see the difference. The seat tube and stay has a yellow tint to it. Thats the top coat turned yellow due to time and UV degradation.


Frame fulled stripped, before sanding.


You can see hints of the top coat on the right hand side, which was under the Carbon-R logo.


Began polishing the the dropouts since they didnt require sanding.




I started sanding the other lugs, but darkness hit, and I called it a day. Will resume work tomorrow, and hopefully get some paint on!

Chombi

Wow!, the frame is looking very promising after you done some of the cleaning and stripping. The lugs would look beautiful polished as you are doing. I polished the lugs and BB shell on my Vitus Carbone when I restored it a couple of years ago and you pics reminds me of my bike.
I have three CF framed bikes I restored already in the last three years and I can't get enough of them yet.
Here's my favorite of the three, My 86 Alan Record Carbone which I built up last year:

I'm only looking for maybe a Peugeot PY10FC to possibly top off my collection of C&V CF bikes, if I can ever find a frameset that is in very good condition one day....
Looks like you're doing a great job on your Centurion! Keep the build pics coming! And welcome to the C&V forum CF bike club!

Chombi

QuangVuong

Was linked to your Lineseeker over on BNA. THats one lovely bike. Same with the others.

THe PY10FCs are what Ive been looking for as well! And Ive found 2! Cant send PM yet, so send me an email.

EDIT: Theyre gone Oh well, I message the seller about if the winner wanna splits a frame with me.

RobbieTunes

Decals would be hard to exactly duplicate, at a reasonable cost, but can be done, nonetheless. VeloCals has the '88 Ironman decals, and it appears they'd suffice for almost all but the top tube and forks. Since they are digitally made, it may be possible to send good details on your decals to JR, and he can duplicate them pretty closely. It's not something that can't be done; it's more a matter of finding someone who wants to take the time to do it, for fun or limited profit. As detailed as you want to get, I'd recommend finding someone who wants to duplicate yours, and use substitutions as Plan B.

I'd keep the proprietary headset, and then start casting about for Nitto B115 bars and a Nitto deluxe stem. The original tires were Panaracer Technova's, and I know where a set of those can be had, if you like a harsh ride (700x19).

It's going to be killer.

wearyourtruth

i have a PY10FC. here it was built up with spare parts just to get on the road. since then it's been collecting dust. i'm not gonna lie, if it's the holy grail of someone's collection i'd consider selling the frame/fork.

Chombi

[QUOTE=wearyourtruth;15505623]i have a PY10FC. here it was built up with spare parts just to get on the road. since then it's been collecting dust. i'm not gonna lie, if it's the holy grail of someone's collection i'd consider selling the frame/fork.

PM sent.......

Chombi

QuangVuong

I know you can't source these decals since this frames so rare. That's the reason why I'm drawing them up. I've got them scanned, and will start cleaning it up and creating a file for someone to print. Prob will find a signwriter, or similar to print. Those Nitto stems are expensive! But are very nice. If one pops up for he right price, then I'd grab it. Won't get those bars though, otherwise I'll keep smashing my wrists on the bar when the the drops. I'll stick with the Sakae bar Ive got. And Ive already got Rubinos for it. The old tyres are balding and prob won't last too long.

QuangVuong

Polishing the rest took forever(5 hours or so).


BB was hard to do, so I did what I could.






Then proceeded with the first couple coats of clear. I am using waterbased polyurethane(Cabots Cabothane Gloss). Its for wood products, but its useful for other purposes as well.


Nice and glossy


Got a few runs in the last coat I sprayed, so Ill sand those areas down and continue clear coating tomorrow.

Chombi

Love the specially shaped cable guides and stops on the frame. They really popped up nicely for you after cleaning and polishing. You can always hit the lugs and BB with more polishing after you're done with the clear coat. You can always mask the clear coated ares to protect them from the polishing work. Also took a long time and a lot of elbow grease to polish my Vitus Carbone's lugs and BBs, Also had to buy all sorts of polishing compounds, polishing heads and bonnets for my drill and my Dremel to get them to where I wanted them to look like.
I remember getting my lugs to a similar point of polish you have on your pics and at the last minute before building up the bike decided to hit them again with one real good and thorough polishing session to get the nooks an crannies really cleaned up and get the polish closer to mirror quality (it turned into a sort of more focused sub-project for the frame). and the extra effort and time was really worth it in the end. Getting the frame to its best condition will be easiest before you have components mounted on it that will get in the way.

shoota 

Looking good, love that frame!

QuangVuong

Painting done! Once stickers get printed, I may add 2 more coats over the top.


Cheated a bit for the BB. I was not bothered fully polishing it, so I just got some chroming powder, and covered it. Not as shiny as the other lugs, but its one colour overall, rather than bright and dark patches light before.


Shiny!




And polished up the forks!


Didnt get anything else done because my Cadex frame arrived! Build thread(https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nd-Lightweight)


Anyway, I will continue working on the decals. The frame will be hung up for a couple days for the polyurethane to fully dry. In the meantime, I will clean up the RSX groupset ready to be put on in a few days.

QuangVuong

Anyway, it began raining last night and today, so I couldnt really do much. Just begun cleaning up the group set. Mishap with the RSX cranks though. I assumed they were the standard 52/42t sizes, but it turned out to be small as at 46/36t. So I had Biopaces around, but they dont fit! I guess Ill just run 105 cranks with the Biopaces.


Got some info on the Manly Cycle Centre. Wouldnt be surprised if most of the lugged CF bikes in Aus/NSW come from this store.

Sexy_Lugs

QV,

Now that is a sexy set of lugs you got there! It is gonna be a head turner once you get it all built up. Keep us updated!

RobbieTunes

The RSX back then often came in a "compact" setup. I think they may be 110BCD, in which case there are rings out there that will go up to 54t. However, your FD may not work with the larger-circumference rings, so I'd double-check that. If that's a longer than normal RD, you may be able to run quite a range on that. The fork is slightly different from the fork on the Ironman Carbon, but it sure came out nice. Looking really nice.

On the Giant, I have the same fork on my MCR.

As far as the numbers on the BB shell, I've never been able to figure them out. I had 2 "59cm" and 1 "56cm" carbon Centurion frames, and the numbers on all the BB shells were different, and seemed to have little accuracy in relation to the sizes.

QuangVuong

The RD is standard sized(same as the other RDs I have, and definately not a long cage). Will have to check on the FD though. Hopefully itll be able to accomodate bigger rings.

The fork wouldve been the easiest and quickest to polish due to its relatively flat shape and it was all done by hand. And this fork did have Tange decals which say BONDED LIGHT ALLOY FORK. Were the CF Ironmans were one piece aluminium forks?

Chombi

I don't think anyone made a one-peice aluminum fork since they made the infamous "death forks" in the for Vicount bicycles in the 70's (IIRC), whcih supposedly failed on some users and were recalled by the manufacturer......After that, most bike designers concluded that a one piece cast aluminum fork was a terrible idea.
What might look like 1 piece forks on later bikes just had separate sloping or curved (as in unicrown style) crowns that have internal lugging that inserts into the fork leg tubes, so it looks like one piece, but there is always a seam where the legs and the crown meets if you look closely....so they were still three piece designs....

dddd

I'm new to this thread, and liking the look of this restored frame.
I believe the BB shell numbers are angles, just not the usual head/seat-tube angles but are the lug disposition angles relative to the seat tube, so yes they vary with frame size, but of course look unfamiliar to any published geometry figures.

I still remember Bicycling Magazine from the '80's, they had a lab unlike today's New York(?) offices with a few writers.
They had a Tarantula frame tester and tested the carbon frames of the day.
Yours was, at the time, the most flexible frame they had yet tested.
Oddly enough, the similar-looking Epic by Specialized was the stiffest.

I remember updating one of these Centurion Carbons, it had a 6-speed 600 freehub that I switched for a 7-speed Hyperglide body, so that dates these frames from around 1987 for the first ones I think.

I had a Cadex MTB that was branded Univega Carbolite, and it proved very durable as my first MTB race bike. I later sold it to a heavy fellow, and later re-bought it and re-sold it to a third owner.
I'd like to find a 59cm Cadex some day, and if necessary re-finish it as done here.

QuangVuong

Those numbers did come up in a quick search I did. And you're prob right about the lug angles.

Is a flexible frame any different? Good or bad? I mean, I don't reckon I'll be riding this one too much. The Cadex will be the one built up with more modern components and will be used mainly. This Im a little afraid of destroying it if I jump a curb or something.

And you're spot on with the dates. The Centurion Ironman CF was made in 1988 only. This Carbon model would've been around at that time as well. I believe Robbietunes said it was 88-89 which he knows of. Them Centurion died out in 91 or something. Anyway, its good to know another owner. I do wonder how many of these Carbon models are around. Oh, but you speak of a 6 speed 600 with a freewheel. Would this be the 600 AX Groupset?

Have fun finding a Cadex. I've always thought that they were a little hard to find in Aus, but when I posted up this build on the Aussie forum, quite a few people have messaged me about if I wanted their Cadexs. If only I had the money and space for them.

Anyway been spending time on stripping the Cadex's clear coat and haven't done anything more to this. Can't really as Im basically done. Once I finish of drawing the decals, I'll be able to build up the bike.

RobbieTunes

The decals on the Carbon are very consistent with 1989 decals, most notably the Lemans RS decals.

The Ironman Carbon's aluminum fork was very much the same at the top, with the seams, and had the same decals. However, the fork ends did not have the concave areas just above the dropouts.

It does not surprise me that the Carbon, or the Ironman Carbon frames were least stiff. I found them that way, but I really liked riding them, somewhat for that reason. On a century, they were smooth and comfortable, and their light weight helped a lot on the rolling hills not far from here. On sweeping, even tight corners, at speed, once the bike was "planted" on line, you were fine, but deviations could give you some anxiety. I found the flexibility most apparent when using very stiff (Ksyriums) wheels, likewise with more "flexible" wheels that had not been tensioned in years.

The Ironman Carbon was fairly expensive for the time, and didn't sell that well. Perhaps the Carbon R model was a reaction to that, with a step down in component level. I'm trying to find photos of all of mine, but so far, can only come up with this. As you can see, I treated the fork flex by replacing.

QuangVuong

The Ironman CF frames looks exactly like the Carbon frame. Howd you manage a 9/10 speed Ultegra wheel in there? Thought these frames had a 126mm dropout.

Anyway, decals finally drawn up. PNG, JPG and PSD files are here:
https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=...ERROi1mAOZkKOo

Now need to find a printing service. Hopefully can get them on the bike by the weekend.

RobbieTunes

Looking good. I will PM you on the decals. Not that I can print them, but I'd like to get a set made similar to those.

QuangVuong

Thanks. Dont think PM works til like 50 posts. Just email me.