RaleighSport

That is what he meant yes.

JohnDThompson 

I just resurrected a derelict Phil bottom bracket. It came from a neglected rust-bucket Legnano that was so far gone I had to pound the cartridge out of the bottom bracket shell with a hammer. When I got it out and cleaned it up, I found that the bearing cartridges had rusted through, but the stainless steel spindle was fine. Spent about $10 on new bearings, pressed them into place and have an ugly, but fully functional Phil bottom bracket.

Before:


After:

noglider 

I'm telling the moderators!

dddd

Eric, you're putting information forward with your post here.
But, it seems not to be correct info imo.


Noglider, what brand of cartridge were you fighting with? Plastic, alloy or steel NDS cup?

Some of the OEM and price-point cartridges from China are pretty poor, and some of these have downsized the spindle diameter from 17mm to 16mm where it passes thru the bearings.
Makes room for a taller bearing cross-section, but then with more spindle flex and corresponding loss of strength.

I've beaten on the Shimano cartridges with no surprises, and the Phil bb's are a full 17mm across the bearings.

ericbaker

what exactly is not correct?

I speak from many years of being a professional bike mechanic, I've replaced 100's of loose ball BBs with sealed units. My knowledge is practical not theoretical. The same spindle length on a sealed unit will sometimes change the chainline +/- 1-2mm which has VERY rarely created an unworkable chainline. In a 2x5, 2x6, 3x5... ect, especially if it is friction shift, the need for a precision chainline is non-existent in 99% of cases.

There are of course exceptions, and of course you can argue the (theoretical) benefits.

We are overcomplicating a very simple solution.

noglider 

It's a Shimano something or other. I think one cup is plastic and the other aluminum. Really, no complaints other than the creaking.

Amesja

I would also face the driveside of the BB shell before putting in a cartridge BB. A lot of folks say this is not necessary but I disagree with that. Most old frames had very little attention given to the driveside face by the factory. The force of torquing the BB shell against an uneven shell face will cause the shell to bend enough to put uneven loadings on the bearings. Those cartridge BB shells are not battleship strong, they will bend and torque slightly if not put into a properly faced BB shell.

This goes 10x for going to external BB cups. And this is something I would say is a good idea for a vintage bike you don't care about "originality" on. Nashbar sells FSA external-BB cranksets for $100 on sale all the time and they COME with the new BB. You are 1/4th of the way there just buying a new cartridge BB for an old crankset. Talk about smooth bearings and a stiff crank, and you might even drop a pound or two off of your bike.

dddd

Eric, I was thinking that the combined effects of what sounds like your recommendation of much-shorter-than-stock spindles, with any lack of regard for what might easily be 3mm of offset in either of these bike's cases, might likely cause:
A) chainring contact with the chainstay, and/or
B) failure of the front derailer to downshift the chain forcefully.

I'm all in favor of shortening up the chainline a bit, as conditions allow, but advise to tread carefully before dropping coin on a nice new bb.

It helps that I keep a bin of cartridge bb's at hand, various lengths, offsets and conditions (many perhaps no longer actually suitable for longer-term use), as I can confirm in 5 minutes whether a suspected bb choice will be workable.

Of course, you and your shop probably can/will do the same thing when/if the customer brings bikes like these into the shop.

One more thing that I like about cartridge bb's is that any spacer placed under the driveside cup flange won't prevent the lockring on the other end from engaging threads, since there usually is no such lockring!

ericbaker

Im just trying to be helpful I'm a much simpler manner, sharing from a wealth of 1st hand experience. There is indeed a very small amount if risk that your A or B can happen, but like I said, in the many many times I've done this conversion it's very rarely resulted in any issue.

The sizes weren't recommendations just common sizes for vintGe triple and double chainring setups. Measuring and matching spindle length is important.

my recommendation was to have a bike shop provide a bb with the matching spindle length and shell type. That's all you need 98% of the time. If the OP is in the 2% then I'll bite my tounge and wipe the egg off my face.

Amesja

Bottom bracket spacer shims are not expensive and you can always use an old Sturmey-Archer cog washer shim out of the junkpile as that makes a perfect 1.5mm BB shim. Done that a few times and it works a treat.

Bob's your dunkle.

bjtesch

My 2 cents worth-
If the current BB is still good I would clean it, grease it and put it back in.
I recently bought a vintage Paramount frame and swapped all of the old Dura-Ace components from my old frame to it. The BB threads were different so I had to buy a new BB. After some indecision, I finally hunted up a used Shimano 600 BB and put in the bike. I could have gotten a sealed unit for less, but I went with what I had experience with, and I didn't have to buy any new tools.

JohnDThompson 

And if you have an Italian thread bottom bracket, you just need to snip the spacer so you can spread it open slightly to fit over the slightly wider cup.

ThermionicScott 

As some folks in the Bike Mechanics forum have found, the newer Shimano BB's interfere with your ability to use shims -- they have a lipped NDS cup, so if you add spacers, the cup won't be able to torque properly against the left side of the cartridge due to the BB shell being effectively wider than 68mm. Sucks for those of us who like to "hack" our chainline.

agmetal

Realizing that this is an old thread, I have a question about this! What problems can arise from having a shim on the DS, if it causes the NDS cup to not torque correctly against the BB? I have a recurring issue with the BB on a bike that has one of the Velo Orange BB-mounted chainguards, where even with the DS cup tightened in quite securely, it will eventually develop a bit of a "pop" that can be felt through the cranks, where the whole assembly will shift slightly in the shell. Could the lip on the NDS cup be the cause of all my frustration, and are there any quick fixes that won't require removing the chainguard?

arex

Can't help with the problem itself, but if it does turn out that the lip is your issue, you might be able to find a good used or a NOS BB-UN51...pretty much the same as the UN55, but the lips on the cups are much thinner.

ThermionicScott 

If the chainguard is thick enough where it mounts on the BB shell, it could put enough distance between the NDS cup and the cartridge unit that it would be like the NDS cup isn't installed at all. Think of all of your pedalling only being supported on one side, with the whole left side cantilevering out into space... that aluminum DS cup won't be happy for long.

Try one of these Problem Solvers lipless NDS cups, guaranteed to go in as far as it needs to make good contact: Problem Solvers UP-CUP #54 68mm Left Aluminum Cup Silver Shimano Compatible

Unfortunately, Shimano's version (which was cheaper) seems to be between production runs, or maybe even out of production entirely.

@arex's solution looks promising, too.

agmetal

Weird thing is, it'll thread in perfectly happily, and the threads don't appear to be stripped at all! I'll have to see what I can find...I might be able to find a lipless cup like that where I work.

RoadGuy

If the original bottom bracket is still in good working condition, I'd replace the ball bearings clean, regrease and put it back in. Installing a cartridge bottom bracket is not always an upgrade. As as been pointed out already, old style cup and cone bottom brackets almost always can be adjusted to be smoother than today's cartridge bottom brackets. And they can be service, so with a good synthetic grease and periodic service they will last virtually forever. Not something anyone can say about inexpensive cartridge bottom brackets.

The other thing to consider is weight. Cartridge bottom brackets are much heavier than a similar priced cup and cone bottom bracket. I can feel the difference between a cartridge bottom bracket and a cup and cone bottom bracket pedaling a bike down the street. The amount of energy saved by using a cup and cone bottom bracket that's properly serviced and adjusted cannot be ignored (especially by the weight weenies).

ThermionicScott 

The threads won't necessarily strip, one would just torque it against the BB shell and possibly not realize that it hasn't mated with the rest of the unit properly. I could see that happening without any apparent faults at first.

agmetal

agmetal

I found a non-lipped cup and installed it yesterday...I've only ridden maybe 18 miles with it so far, so it'll take some more mileage to be sure if my issue is actually solved, but my initial impression is that it already seems more solid than other times when I've thought I fixed it. So glad I found this thread!

RobbieTunes

I'm having very noisy issues with ISIS bottom brackets, which only come in cartridge. Anyone else?