JSCjr

Assumptions, Goals and Misconceptions?

I'm in the market for my first road bike. I've decided to use this space to document my thoughts as I search, for both posterity's sake (someone else down the road will likely have the same sorts of experiences and questions that I'm having right now) and because I know there is a large community of knowledgeable people here that will jump in to offer insights, opinions and corrections as I move towards a decision and a purchase.

I’ve come to this cycling thing late in the game. I’m 53 and didn’t start riding with any regularity until two years ago. We decided to get hybrid bikes for family fitness outings and things just blossomed from there: 2015: 0 miles, 2016: 380 miles, 2017: 1005 miles and, since I discovered Zwift a few months ago, I’m now riding close to 300 miles a month. So I’ve got the bug, I guess.

Last summer, I began to do group rides at local shops with some regularity and learned the obvious lessons pretty quickly: I needed to work on my legs, but I was also going to have trouble avoiding the "grupetto of one" in those situations as long as I was riding a heavy, non-aerodynamic piece of metal like the Trek FX 7.2. Don’t get me wrong — I’ve been VERY pleased with that bike, but it was clear that I wanted (needed!) to move on to something a bit more responsive. It was time for a road bike!

So, first questions first — what are my cycling goals? If I had any specific goal in mind, it would much more likely be to ride a century than to enter a race. I’ve done a few 30-50 mile rides on the hybrid and, if I were living in the UK, I would see myself as the typical sportive audience — interested in the personal challenge of longer rides while enjoying the thrill of seeing the countryside under my own power at 15-20 mph. I would like to ride something that maximized my own ability (however far I develop that) to climb and to ride for distance. In summary, I guess my goal is to not have my cycling be limited unnecessarily by distance or topography.

And herein enters the first plot twist. One of the reasons that I’ve jumped into cycling over the past two years is that it was the one form of exercise I’ve found that I enjoy AND that doesn’t aggravate a decades-long history of lower back pain. Not to belabor the point, but extended periods of bending over do not sit well with the lumbar region and this will obviously shape the search to come.

After looking around a bit, and doing a lot of reading, I decided that there were four criteria which I wanted (needed?) the new bike to satisfy to help me meet my own goals:

* endurance geometry (for the back; I spent a lot of time looking at stack/reach figures on geometry charts)
* 105 or better group set
* hydraulic disc brakes
* $2000 or less

I’m agnostic about frame material — I’ve been reading a lot lately about the minimal differences between a low-end carbon frame and a good aluminum one, and I have (perhaps ill-informed) reservations about the final fate of a carbon frame were I to have a rough spill or accident - so I’m going to let those chips fall where they may in favor of my primary criteria.

This list of asks, and a lot of Internet searches, led to the following candidate list of bikes to consider:

* Canyon Endurance AL Disc 7.0
* Canyon Endurance CF SL Disc 7.0
* Diamondback Century 2
* Fuji Gran Fondo 2.3
* Giant Defy Advanced 2
* Trek Domane ALR 5 Disc

(These parameters knocked out a bunch of the usual names in this category - neither the Roubaix nor the Synapse get you into hydraulic discs until you pass the $2500 price point, for example.)

While the Canyons are, by any measure, the best spec-for-the-buck in this group, as a first-time road buyer I just don’t think I have the confidence to assess and deal with any issues that might arise and also want to use the purchase as an opportunity to build a relationship with a local shop that I can turn to for service and advice. So I’m leaning strongly away from going the mail-order route this time.

Off to the shops!

cyclozone

The Giant Defy and Trek Domane should be great bikes to ride - fast and comfortable. I remember that when I first moved to a road bike, I would get a sore lower back. However, doing core strengthening exercises and simply riding more alleviated the stress on my lower back muscles significantly.

Do consider getting a bike fit before your purchase!

12strings

One thought, I've heard the Carbon Domane can take 30-32 or bigger tires...not sure that the others do, and not sure if the AL Domane has the same clearance...if so, that just adds another aspect of versatility.

firebird854

You have done your research!

Based off your criteria I would recommend the Trek Domane ALR 5 Disc.

That has the decoupled seat post, an endurance geo, literally made for things like centuries, gran fondos, sportives, and can take the abuse as it is high end alloy.

The Canyon is not a bad idea either, but if you're planning on going the distance and putting some wear on the bike, having bought the bike from a LBS and having it fit/having the opportunity to try before you buy will go a long way.

JSCjr

Off to LBS#1 to try out a Giant Defy Advanced. Unfortunately, none of the local shops had a Defy Advanced 2 in any size*, but this shop had an Advanced 1 in a Medium and an Advanced Pro 1 in a Large (I’m on the border between Medium and Medium/Large). At the very least, I figured I could get a feel for what it was like to ride a proper road bike, some sense of the Defy geometry, and sort out which size was the best fit.

PROs: The first thing I noticed was how responsive the bike was when I stood and leaned on the pedals — it just leapt forward immediately. First lesson to learn when compared to the hybrid at six pounds heavier. Second, it’s a sharp-looking bike; the carbon frame had attractive lines and I like both of the 2018 color schemes.

CONs: I didn’t feel like either size was an appropriate fit — the Medium made me feel cramped in the cockpit, and on the Large I felt like I was bent over double trying to reach for the drops and could definitely feel that strain in my lower back. The hybrid mechanical/hydraulic brakes were no more than OK functionally, but they are a bit of an eyesore aesthetically; they really put an ungainly crimp in the lines of the handlebars.

But I felt that the bike was a nice ride overall and, in the right size, it might be a keeper. Of course, it was the first one I’d ridden . . .

* This would become a common refrain in the days to come; at this price point, and with so much fragmentation in terms of models and sizes, the odds of finding the specific set-up that interests you at a location you can easily reach seem to be dauntingly low. The Giant website has a “Buy Local Now” button that purports to indicate stock status at local dealers, but all I got was a “Availability Unknown” results for a wide radius around my home.

San Pedro

A larger stem on a bike might be needed if your between sizes. Also, Giant has M, M/L, and L sizes, so a L is actually two sizes up from M.

dunrobin

Sounds like your off to a good start. Agreed stem size for fit..also handlebars that have a short reach and drop. At the beginning you will probably be more comfortable just riding the hoods. Off bike conditioning, some weights and stretches, should make riding much more comfortable and enjoyable.

one4smoke

Going through a similar situation myself. Long story short... Several years ago at age 51, I bought a cheap Schwinn hybrid at Target. Rode the heck out of it for a little over a year and went from 268 lbs. down to 167. Bought a Giant Roam 2 thereafter and rode it for approximately 2 years, doing a couple of centuries along the way.

After the Roam, I bought a Specialized Roubaix SL4 Disc not really knowing a great deal about road bikes. As bad as I hate to admit it, I basically fell for the paint scheme not really giving the specs the consideration I should have. It has the Tiagra group set and mechanical disc brakes. Now, I want a bike that has the 105 and hydraulic. I can go either all carbon fiber frame (despite the criticism) or aluminum with carbon fork. Internal cable routing is a must, as well as tire size flexibility. Like yourself, I'm trying to stay in the 2 K range, maybe 2.5 tops. And yeah, paint scheme is still priority.

I'm currently considering the 2018 Roubaix Sport (but mechanical discs) and the Domane SL5 Disc. I also like the Defy Advanced 2, but not crazy about any of the paint schemes it comes with. The Roubaix Sport has the "Future Shock" which I'm not sure to be enthusiastic about ...or leery of. I test rode a Roubaix Expert Ultegra Di2, and the Future Shock really does do an amazing job absorbing the jolts. Despite some negative reviews regarding issues and longevity, my LBS assures me there's no worries. Even though he sells both Specialized and Trek, he has advised me the Roubaix is the way to go for the type of riding I do.

So... I also would like to pull the trigger ASAP to get it dialed in before prime time riding starts up. But, which to get? Most will say, ride all that your interested in and get the one that feels the best. That's much easier said than done. It's virtually impossible to find the ones your interested in, in your size (61/62cm / XL). And it's even rarer to find a dealer that will order one in with no obligations should you be less than impressed.

Let the journey begin...

datlas 

Agree to try them out. You may want to look at what Specialized has in your price range, eg. Roubaix Sport.

WhyFi

I just picked up a Domane SL 5 Gravel for $2k on sale - it was, admittedly, a very good price, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to find a similar deal. It's certainly worth visiting a Trek dealer to see if they're looking to move any inventory (side note: the Domane Gravel and Domane Disc are the same frame, but the Gravel comes with fatter tires and better shifter/brakes, so that might give you a little more inventory to play with in your search).

Also, if that Giant is a 2018, it probably has Giant's hybrid hydro tech - in 2017 they were full hydro but they backed off in 2018 and went to mechanical levers and a mech/hydro converter mounted on the stem - not something terribly interesting to me, but YMMV.

On the Diamondback Front, member pricing did bring the carbon, Ultegra-equipped Century model down under $2k, but I haven't looked at pricing in a few weeks. **edit: just checked DB member pricing - yeah, Century 5 Carbon is still $1995. Put it in your shopping cart and "forget" about it (close the window without completing the sale), and DB might email you a promo code for an additional 5% off (SAVE5 was the code that they'd sent me, seems pretty generic, so might as well give it a whirl).**

JSCjr

On to LBS#2 to look at Trek Domanes. I ideally wanted to find a shop that had both an ALR Disc 5 and an SL 5 in stock so I could feel the difference between a carbon and aluminum frame with all the other variables held constant (since the Domane was the only aluminum frame that made my shortlist). But, of course, I could not find an LBS in the area that stocked an ALR Disc 5 is size 56. (After hunting and pecking from one shop website/phone number to another for a few iterations, I got in touch with a corporate Trek representative. To their credit, they were able to use centralized stock info to point me at TWO dealers in MD with this model/size in stock - really? two in the entire state? - but they are each an hour's drive away, in opposite directions, so that will have to wait.) But I did find a local dealer with a solid rep that had an SL 5 in stock in my size and, since the primary goal for these early tests was to get a feel for the various frame geometries, I went out and gave that a spin.

Wow. The ride on this bike was so smooth, I found it a little disconcerting at times -- almost like I couldn't feel the road (OK, parking lot) running beneath me. And the Shimano hydraulic brakes were incredibly responsive and sure, even on wet pavement in a light drizzle. I was impressed by everything about this bike, and was disappointed to step off and hand it back to the shop staff.

But . . . it's one notch out of my price range -- I would either have to reconsider that parameter [gulp, but I can now understand the argument that it's worth it] or have a positive test ride on the ALR 5 Disc that convinces me that the marginal improvement from aluminum to carbon is not worth the $600 price difference.

Now the game begins to get interesting.

JSCjr

The Fuji Gran Fondo 2.3 was next on the list. On the plus side, for the first time I was able to find the specific model I wanted to see in stock at local shops (presumably the fact that a large nationwide bicycle chain carries the brand contributes to stock scope and flexibility). On the minus side, the test was a major disappointment on three fronts.

First, despite the many claims on the Fuji website about the technology they’ve put into vibration dampening, I found the ride on this bike to be positively jarring — I seemed to feel every single crease and bump in the (reasonably well-maintained) parking lot, in complete opposition to my experience on the Domane SL just two hours earlier. (Looking back on it now a few days later, I wonder how much of this had to do with tire size and pressures - maybe the shop just ran max tire pressures on the Zaffiro Pros?)

Second, although I went into the test anticipating once of the most back-friendly riding positions of all the bikes of interest based on the stack/reach numbers, when actually on the bike I felt both cramped and over-extended (when reaching for the drops) and felt real aching in my back within thirty minutes of completing the ten-minute test ride*, even though I am a clear dead-center fit for the 56 frame. (To be fair, since I had tested the Domane only a couple of hours before so there could have been some residual or cumulative effect, but based on the feel of the rides I can’t escape the conclusion that this was largely a result of the Gran Fondo experience.)

And, third, the performance of the hybrid cable-actuated disc brakes was not impressive; I had been looking askew at these anyways given my experience on (and the reviews of) the Giant Defy Advanced and been hoping to be convinced by performance on the tarmac, but stopping did not have a positive, reassuring feel, even given drier road conditions than that I experienced while on the Domane.

This one’s going to have to come off the list.

(*) This is another problematic aspect of the bike-buying experience — I’m buying a bike on which I expect to routinely spend a number of consecutive hours over varying terrain, but I’ve only got 10-15 minutes to wheel it around a flat parking lot before I make a $2000 purchasing decision? That’s definitely not optimal, although it’s hard to imagine a good solution - if bike shops were not like British pubs and generally tied specifically to just one or two makes, then a good exchange program could address that . . . e.g., buy the Fuji and it doesn’t work out? Bring it back to the shop and swap it out for a comparable Specialized or Trek.

HTupolev

Tire setup is a crucial issue when comparing bicycle ride smoothness.

When the nearest LBS to me received their first Domane with dual IsoSpeed, they were super excited and insisted that I try it out, saying that it was "smooth like riding a mountain bike." On the bike, things didn't seem unusually smooth at all... I felt the tires, and it was obvious that the shop had pumped them to max.

Stack and reach just tell you where the top of the headset is relative to the bottom bracket. It's only indirectly related to where the fit and posture of a bike actually end up. And, until you try different postures, you might not know how you'll perceive and react to them.

JSCjr

While in LBS#2 testing the Domane, I noticed that they have a GURU bike fit set-up. It had already been on my mind to strongly consider a professional fitting given my back concerns, the transition from flat bar to drop bar, and the desire to make sure I “get it right” given the investment in a decent bike. Based on my recent research, it seems like the various fitting systems are more or less equivalent (“it’s about the fitter, not the equipment”), so I reached out to the shop owner for more details. They do about 300 fits per year, so there’s a lot of experience there, and the owner asked me lots of pertinent questions about my goals, the setup of my current bike, the nature of my back issues, etc. which made me feel that he knew what he was doing and was trying to problem solve rather than to sell. He said that normally he would suggest to someone moving from flat bars to drop that they delay the full fit until *after* 200 miles on a new bike, to allow some time to get acclimated first to the macro change in position before dialing in more localized adjustments; but, given the modifications I’d made to the hybrid for comfort — both a high-angle stem and a riser bar — he was recommending the full fit first to see if appropriate adjustments would even be possible on something like the Domane. It was a really good, lengthy exchange that made me confident in his ability and willingness to help get me where I want to be. And, as a significant added bonus, the fee for the fit will be applied to the cost of the bike if I purchase it there. So I’ve scheduled an appointment for a fitting next week - at that time, he will measure the coordinates of the hybrid so he can set that up on the GURU as a reference point for the fit.

JSCjr

Busy day coming up on Saturday - fairly long drive to a different shop to test out the Domane ALR 5 Disc, then back to LBS#2 to chat about my upcoming fit and to have a second go on the SL 5 followed immediately by a comparison ride on an ALR 4 (not my size or model, but just want to experience carbon vs aluminum in immediate juxtaposition). By the time I get through all of that, I should have a good idea in my head as to whether I’d be willing to push the budget envelope for the carbon model or not.

Am also going to track down whether any local outlets have a Diamondback Century 2 in stock; looks like Performance Bicycles and REI carry them, at least online. Hydraulic discs and an Ultra groupset for under $2000? Seems a little bit too good to be true . . . anyone out there own one?

firebird854

That's ridiculous, I recently purchased my $2099 Tarmac Pro and was given "as much time as I want" to test it. I then proceeded to nearly get lost as I hammered on the thing for about an hour and a half in an unfamiliar town (drove 2 hours to test it). Frankly, they just took down my license information and told me not to steal it, and that was about it.

firebird854

Also, cool thread, and I love all the research you are putting into this, can't wait to get your thoughts on the SL 5 vs ALR 4, I'm just hoping it's a fair comparison and they didn't run like 60 psi on your tires for that initial trial.

Another thought too, if you have any specialized dealers near you you may want to consider a base Roubaix, the 2018 is full carbon, Shimano Tiagra, and pretty comfy at an awesome $1900.

JSCjr

I will start checking pressures from now on. Having said that, I am aware of the recent move to overturn the conventional wisdom that harder, narrower tires are faster, but a recent Cycling Tips podcast was eye-openingly definitive about the empirical results and the implications for cyclists. According to actual evidence, we probably should be running closer to 60psi on our road tires.

No hydraulic brakes, and no 105 groupset, either one of which was enough to keep it off my list. I think (today) these are more important to me than carbon.

WhyFi

It comes standard with 32s - 60 wouldn't be inappropriate.

surak

Wow, that Century 2 with corporate pricing is $1275, $1211.24 after using SAVE5 promo code.

firebird854

Ah, I wasn't aware it was running 32s, understandable.

wphamilton

I really, really don't want to appear contentious and I'm not arguing at all that your research is wrong or criteria should be changed. As far as I'm concerned your choices are all valid and not really anyone else's business. However, just in case there's a gap in your research I want to mention that your hard requirements do not represent a consensus or conventional wisdom among experienced road cyclists. If you feel like expanding your consideration, that is, you shouldn't feel like you're automatically giving something up.

JSCjr

In what way(s)? As I said at the very beginning, part of the reason I'm putting all of this out here is to avail myself of others' insights -- if you think something here seems headed in the wrong direction, I'm all ears.

wphamilton

I just wouldn't eliminate everything below 105 or with rim brakes. There are plenty who will agree with you, so it's ultimately about what you want. But if there was a great deal with a Tiagra equipped bike, or it had mechanical disk or rim brakes, I wouldn't eliminate it from consideration.

WhyFi

I think that you misspelled 'retrogrouches.'