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Derailleur advice por favor

Old 06-02-19, 09:59 AM
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SB_Greg
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Derailleur advice por favor

I am completing a restomod project on a late 70s Peugeot PX10. I have kept the original stronglight crankset (52/40). However, I coldset the rear stays and am using a SRAM 8 speed cassette (32/11). I am also using Shimano Dura Ace bar end shifters.

The rear drop out was tapped for modern derailleurs by a previous owner so I have options.

Based on my evaluation my drivetrain capacity is (52-40)+(32-11)=33. So I suppose I need a medium cage 8 speed derailleur.

Id greatly appreciate some advice on a good choice here. A friend told me that I might need a Dura Ace derailleur because the bar ends have a particular pull length. Can anyone confirm or refute that? Otherwise I’d love a rear derailleur that comes close to matching a vintage aesthetic.

Much thanks for the feedback.

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Old 06-02-19, 10:07 AM
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Your Dura Ace bar end doesn't have a special pull ratio. What speed is it labeled for?

I would personally get a Deore XT RD (M739 or thereabouts) and run it in friction mode. Make sure it is a bottom pull derailleur.

If you want to run it indexed you will need a derailleur to match your bar end (Shimano road).

Your RD hanger is tapped but there is no stop on it for a non-Simplex derailleur. That might pose an issue.

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Old 06-02-19, 11:08 AM
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Yeah I should have noticed that the simplex dropout hadn’t been butchered. And even though it’s been tapped I couldn’t bring myself to file it down. I’ll have to go with the claw approach. I definitely want index capability so still looking for advice on a derailleur choice.
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Old 06-02-19, 11:36 AM
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You might want a Tiagra 4600 gs - it’s rated for a 30-tooth large cog, but I have heard it’s easily pushed to 32. The pull ratio is the same as 8-speed. (Tiagra 4700 will not work - pull ratio matches Shimano 11-speed.)

Some Dura Ace setups have a unique pull ratio, but not those shifters. I think it was the 7-speed downtube shifters. Sheldon has a Dura Ace compatibility cheat sheet.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html
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Old 06-02-19, 02:46 PM
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So the 4600 is a 10 speed derailleur. Will that work with my 8 speed cassette and 8 speed bar end shifters?

Originally Posted by noobinsf
You might want a Tiagra 4600 gs - it’s rated for a 30-tooth large cog, but I have heard it’s easily pushed to 32. The pull ratio is the same as 8-speed. (Tiagra 4700 will not work - pull ratio matches Shimano 11-speed.)

Some Dura Ace setups have a unique pull ratio, but not those shifters. I think it was the 7-speed downtube shifters. Sheldon has a Dura Ace compatibility cheat sheet.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html
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Old 06-02-19, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SB_Greg
So the 4600 is a 10 speed derailleur. Will that work with my 8 speed cassette and 8 speed bar end shifters?
Yep, pretty much any Shimano 7s thru 10s rear derailleur will move laterally the same amount per click, with the exceptions of those Dura Ace cases and Tiagra 4700. You have to be careful with max cog rating, though, because many long cage of earlier eras were rated for 27-tooth large cog, and I am not sure what variables make them viable for pushing up to 32. I think many others have done it, but again, I haven’t, so I can’t comment on the tweaks others have done to make it work.

Last edited by noobinsf; 06-02-19 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 06-02-19, 03:22 PM
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Much thanks for the wisdom. I’ll start hunting for a 4600 gs. I also just ordered one of these to contend with the Simplex dilemma.



Originally Posted by noobinsf
Yep, pretty much any Shimano 7s thru 10s rear derailleur will move laterally the same amount per click, with the exceptions of those Dura Ace cases and Tiagra 4700. You have to be careful with max cog rating, though, because many long cage of earlier eras were rated for 27-tooth large cog, and I am not sure what variables make them viable for pushing up to 32. I think many others have done it, but again, I haven’t, so I can’t comment on the tweaks others have done to make it work.
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Old 06-02-19, 03:30 PM
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This is also a good one with more capacity than you need, and a more classic look:

https://www.modernbike.com/microshif...patible-silver
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Old 06-02-19, 04:36 PM
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What is the model # of shifter? or is there a speed compatibility marking on it?

If they are SL-BS77, it works in index mode for 9 sp with the normal Shimano RDs. To use for 8 sp index, it requires a RD-740x series RD. The cable pull for all Shimano 9 sp are the same & only index for 9 sp, with the single exception mentioned.
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Old 06-02-19, 09:19 PM
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It is 8 speed. Sl bs50

Originally Posted by KCT1986
What is the model # of shifter? or is there a speed compatibility marking on it?

If they are SL-BS77, it works in index mode for 9 sp with the normal Shimano RDs. To use for 8 sp index, it requires a RD-740x series RD. The cable pull for all Shimano 9 sp are the same & only index for 9 sp, with the single exception mentioned.

Last edited by SB_Greg; 06-05-19 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 06-02-19, 09:46 PM
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They may be ugly, but is there any chance the B-pivot stop on those new Shimano Deore MTB derailers would clear the Simplex mount?

Perhaps it might be possible to take the rear tab of a Shimano 10-speed RD, cut the B-pivot screw and part of the tab off, and re-drill the spring hole so the B-pivot can operate off the leading edge of the derailer hanger, Simplex-style?



Alternately, it may be possible (and expensive) to 3D print an alternate version of this part, with the Simplex mods worked in.

-Kurt
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Old 06-02-19, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SB_Greg
It is 8 speed. The only marking other than dura Ace is M5
Here's the obvious link to a compatibility chart.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

Yeah, you're supposed to use Dura Ace RD with Dura Ace shifter in that era. Dura Ace was it's own weird thing. You might be able to use some other derailleur if you hack it with clever tricks to adjust the ratio. Big props if you can get a Simplex to work with them. ( dddd probably has done this already.... )

Personally I'd avoid the hassle and use friction shift and ENE or Silver shifters instead, but I'm used to friction.
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Old 06-02-19, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SB_Greg
It is 8 speed. The only marking other than dura Ace is M5
The ones I've seen have the model # molded into the (rubber?) padded shifter lever cover.
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Old 06-02-19, 10:21 PM
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Ok thought I had an understanding of this that any 8-10 speed Shimano derailleur with the appropriate capacity would work. Now I’m lost. Has to be a Dura Ace derailleur from the 90s?

Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Here's the obvious link to a compatibility chart.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

Yeah, you're supposed to use Dura Ace RD with Dura Ace shifter in that era. Dura Ace was it's own weird thing. You might be able to use some other derailleur if you hack it with clever tricks to adjust the ratio. Big props if you can get a Simplex to work with them. ( dddd probably has done this already.... )

Personally I'd avoid the hassle and use friction shift and ENE or Silver shifters instead, but I'm used to friction.
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Old 06-02-19, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Here's the obvious link to a compatibility chart.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

Yeah, you're supposed to use Dura Ace RD with Dura Ace shifter in that era. Dura Ace was it's own weird thing. You might be able to use some other derailleur if you hack it with clever tricks to adjust the ratio. Big props if you can get a Simplex to work with them. ( dddd probably has done this already.... )

Personally I'd avoid the hassle and use friction shift and ENE or Silver shifters instead, but I'm used to friction.
Hmm... I revisited the chart linked above, and I thought the alternate cable routing (illustrated in that link above) would allow any shimano derailleur to be used with the 8-speed shifters. I don't have any 8-speed shifters to test for certain, but I thought that was the case. When I researched this a few months ago, I was looking for a permutation that would have allowed me to use my 7-speed DA shifters, and then went a different direction with the build. (I forgot to mention the alternate cable routing before -- I was doing that from memory and the table did not display correctly on my mobile browser, so I wasn't looking at it when I posted earlier.)

Last edited by noobinsf; 06-02-19 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 06-03-19, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SB_Greg
Ok thought I had an understanding of this that any 8-10 speed Shimano derailleur with the appropriate capacity would work. Now I’m lost. Has to be a Dura Ace derailleur from the 90s?
It depends on which model these shifters are. Usually these aren't marked with "Dura-ace" or "Ultegra". Common ones are:

SL-BS77-Native for 9 sp w/most Shimano or 8 sp with RD-740x series. Using most Shimano RD with alternate cable routing as shown by Sheldon Brown is supposed to work. Never tried the alternate cable routing so don't know how reliably it indexes.

SL-BS64-Native for 8 sp with most Shimano RD. Standard cable attachment.
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Old 06-03-19, 02:54 AM
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The problem is that Shimano decided to use the same molded part number early on and differentiate 7400 compatible bar end shifters and normal ones with a small silver sticker on the lever that says either "Compatible with Dura-Ace rear derailleur" or "Not compatible with Dura-Ace rear derailleur" the later 9sp shifters also have a sticker that states compatibility with 8sp 7400. I think the ones with black SIS/friction selectors tend to be normal 8sp but I'm not entirely sure.

Last edited by Kuromori; 06-03-19 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 06-03-19, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by noobinsf
Hmm... I revisited the chart linked above, and I thought the alternate cable routing (illustrated in that link above) would allow any shimano derailleur to be used with the 8-speed shifters. I don't have any 8-speed shifters to test for certain, but I thought that was the case. When I researched this a few months ago, I was looking for a permutation that would have allowed me to use my 7-speed DA shifters, and then went a different direction with the build. (I forgot to mention the alternate cable routing before -- I was doing that from memory and the table did not display correctly on my mobile browser, so I wasn't looking at it when I posted earlier.)
Yeah, that's one of the hacks I alluded to. I haven't tried it myself. One would assume if St Sheldon posts it that it would at least work reasonably well. Worth a try. It's my understanding that this wasn't official Shimano spec, but I don't actually know. Anyone? There's also various inline ratio changing gizmos. That would be rather extreme solution though.

8 speed Dura Ace was still new when I quit wrenching and Dura Ace would have only been used with itself. This sort of mix and match was a few years away yet.

As someone pointed out earlier, these shifters might not even have the Dura Ace proprietary pull ratio. Without the original packaging, hard to tell. Might work with a 'normal' Shimano derailleur as is.
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Old 06-03-19, 08:54 AM
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Ok thanks all. Sounds like I should experiment with a few Shimano derailleurs at the coop before dropping any kind of $.
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Old 06-03-19, 09:53 AM
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FWIW I run a Durace 9 speed bar end shifter with a Deore LX M581 long cage in friction mode and it works great, never tried in index mode. Good luck with your PX 10 project
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Old 06-03-19, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SB_Greg
Much thanks for the wisdom. I’ll start hunting for a 4600 gs. I also just ordered one of these to contend with the Simplex dilemma.
What I see going on there is a potential for the nut that holds the hanger to interfere with the smallest cog or the chains engagement with the smallest cog.

If the original is already tapped, why not trace the profile & file it with a hand file? It's a pretty straight forward task & not even particular to degree of precision. Plus it's much harder to screw up if done by hand and allows the maximum freedom of 8 through 12 cogs of all modern cassettes.
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Old 06-03-19, 10:20 AM
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Ill try the claw first and if problems ensue I will resort to filing.
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Old 06-03-19, 10:37 AM
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'Ultegra' bar end was the 8 speed, 'dura ace' detents closer together for 9 other than that, no quality difference .


You may be facing an incompatible parts & frame mix for your wished for modernizing outcome..




so tapping and filing is in your future, & maybe a 9 vs an 8 cog cassette..






...

Last edited by fietsbob; 06-03-19 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 06-03-19, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
'Ultegra' bar end was the 8 speed, 'dura ace' detents closer together for 9 other than that, no quality difference .

You may be facing an incompatible parts & frame mix for your wished for modernizing outcome..



so tapping and filing is in your future, & maybe a 9 vs an 8 cog cassette.....
I would agree that the claw approach isn't the right one for this application.

For one thing, the derailer is going to have to move inward to it's very limits of travel just to reach the largest cog, which may affect indexing accuracy in the range of the largest cogs.

Another issue is that the quick-release will need to be made hugely off center, using a much longer spring on the right than on the left.
Either that or no springs.

As far as the shifter, if it is actually Dura-Ace and with only 8 actual indexing positions, then it is designed for use with the 740X type of derailer (or a standard derailer with modified cable anchoring, which is somewhat trial/error in terms of the exact cable routing placement).
A Suntour XC Pro 8s rear derailer will also index reasonably well with 8s Dura-Ace shifters and could very likely handle your choice of gearing, though the later ones were intended for use with MicroDrive-sized sprockets.

If I were doing this I might start by trying whatever Suntour Accushift MTB derailer that I or the co-op had laying around.
Likely the 7s versions (more common, inexpensive, and made for non-compact sprocket sizes) can span Shimano 8s, so I think it is worth trying. This won't work with the claw!

Note that Suntour 3040 or any 3XXX series Accushift derailers will not work here, they are the cheaper/heavier ones and had their own indexing standard using a longer cable travel.
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Old 06-03-19, 02:16 PM
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Here is where the claw hanger concept comes from. At this point I am going to go to the COOP and try a bunch of different things and report back what works. I greatly appreciate the advice. New ground for me as I haven't tried a restomod before having lived primarily in the world of friction shifters.
https://www.redclovercomponents.com/blog/1

And hmm check out these Wolf Tooth Road links as another option to deal with the Simplex drop out dilemma.
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/roadlink

Last edited by SB_Greg; 06-03-19 at 02:31 PM.
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