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Persistent issues with shifting

Old 09-30-19, 08:43 PM
  #1  
bhdavis1978
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Persistent issues with shifting

I am having persistent issues with shifting on my bike. It is a 10 speed Shimano 105 system. I have replace the derailleur, the hanger, the cables with dura ace cables. One mechanic said he cleaned the inside of the shifters and relubricated it. Yet after all of that the shifting issues persist.

The last mechanic said he had to bend the hanger to get the derailleur to line up with the cogs. I asked about this, cause I figured the hanger would be perfectly aligned out of the factory. He said it is but that there is something about where the hanger connects to the frame that is requiring it. It’s not clear to me if this is the result of wear over time, or if perhaps it was a manufacturing defect that existed from the beginning. He said the derailleur was still a small amount our of alignment but that it should be good enough. Is this weird or is this a thing. For the record it’s a 2011 Giant TCR Advanced.

it seemed like it was initially, for the first ride, but over time (about 200 km) it’s slowly reverted back to its normal poor shifting self.

I’m not sure what to do. I’m getting close to thinking about just parting it out and getting a new bike.

Is it possible that electric shifting would solve this? I am under the impression that electric shifting doesn’t go out of alignment although I don’t understand how they can be accomplished.

I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter
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Old 09-30-19, 09:00 PM
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I actually have a Giant with that shifting system (105) and it keeps going out of adjustment too, but it's because there isn't a lock nut on the barrel adjuster where it goes into the RD. Next time I have to replace the cable I plan on fitting a nut in there. Until then, I have to fine tune it almost every ride. It would seem to me that if the mechanic that worked on yours is experienced, he should have been able to adjust it for you and if it worked for a while and then doesn't, it might be cable stretch, which is easily corrected by adjusting the barrel in or out (usually out if the cable is stretching) to line the RD up with the gear that you're currently in. Lots of good vids on Utube that explain how to do this if I've only confused you. Good luck,
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Old 09-30-19, 09:13 PM
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OP- what are the problems? I don't see then stated. What is the cable routing? Internal/external? The vast majority of hangers are just one more stamped item in the industrial world and stamping is a coarse method of making something (think about cheap stamped der's or chain rings). We check every hanger we install and need to correct/tweak most all. Hangers will shift their alignment with the wheel's QR being tightened as the hanger and frame contact surfaces are not perfectly flat (see stamped reference above). But it sounds like a cable issue, friction changes over time.

bigbus- Have you places a witness mark on the adjuster to see if it's really rotating out of position from what it was set at? This is the only aspect a lock nut will solve. Andy
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Old 09-30-19, 10:30 PM
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Shifting up often requires shifting one click and then partially shifting again, or double up-shifting and then shifting back one.

The cables are brand new. Less than 200 k on them. The cables where new into the shop, they weren’t old and sitting around. The cables are externally routed.

Thanks for the info on the hanger, that was very informative.


Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
OP- what are the problems? I don't see then stated. What is the cable routing? Internal/external? The vast majority of hangers are just one more stamped item in the industrial world and stamping is a coarse method of making something (think about cheap stamped der's or chain rings). We check every hanger we install and need to correct/tweak most all. Hangers will shift their alignment with the wheel's QR being tightened as the hanger and frame contact surfaces are not perfectly flat (see stamped reference above). But it sounds like a cable issue, friction changes over time.

bigbus- Have you places a witness mark on the adjuster to see if it's really rotating out of position from what it was set at? This is the only aspect a lock nut will solve. Andy
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Old 10-01-19, 12:55 AM
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Hangers are also very easy to bend, as they're designed as sacrificial parts that will bend or break instead of the frame or derailleur. Aligning hangers is extremely common and routine at a bike shop.

If the hanger is straight, the shifters work consistently, the cables and housing are new, etc, I'd check to see if there was significant wear to the derailleur itself. This would explain with absolutely new cables/housing and a perfect setup, it works, but after the slightest bit of time it works poorly. If you're a high mileage rider and have been riding the bike since 2011, it's quite likely that there's excessive play in the pivots, there's excessive friction in the B pivot, and it may have a slightly bent cage, etc. It's a pretty easy thing for a shop to swap out diagnostically.

An entirely new bike would be a little silly, in my opinion. If everything in the drivetrain is starting to significantly wear out, it may not be totally crazy to upgrade just the drivetrain of the bike.

If you're upgrading to 11 speed, be aware that it requires a different freehub than 10 speed. Being from 2011, your bike probably doesn't have an 11 speed freehub body, but it may or may not be upgradeable, or you might need a new wheel. If you want to use an 11-34 cassette those 11 speed cassettes will fit on a 10 speed freehub body. Or honestly current Tiagra 4700 runs better than 5700 ever did for what it's worth.
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Old 10-01-19, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
OP- what are the problems? I don't see then stated. What is the cable routing? Internal/external? The vast majority of hangers are just one more stamped item in the industrial world and stamping is a coarse method of making something (think about cheap stamped der's or chain rings). We check every hanger we install and need to correct/tweak most all. Hangers will shift their alignment with the wheel's QR being tightened as the hanger and frame contact surfaces are not perfectly flat (see stamped reference above). But it sounds like a cable issue, friction changes over time.

bigbus- Have you places a witness mark on the adjuster to see if it's really rotating out of position from what it was set at? This is the only aspect a lock nut will solve. Andy
Morning Andy, Yeah, I put an ink mark from a felt tip pen on it and it rolls inward (threads in-clockwise) from the tension of the springs pulling on the cable. It turns really easy (too easy, in my opinion) but I don't want to cut the lead cable end off on the end of the cable at this point to put a lock nut on it. It can wait until I have other issues that require removing the cable.
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Old 10-01-19, 09:06 AM
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It’s a new derailleur too, slightly less new but maybe 1200 to 1500 km on it. Oh and a new chain. I guess it could be the cassette not seating properly with the chain? Other than that, it’s just the shifters. This bike probably gets 5000 to 6000 k per year over the past few years, probably 2500 per year before that on lost years (I shifted more of my commuting rides to it, mostly in the summer).

4700 is maybe a good idea. It’s currently 5600 I believe- first gen 10 speed 105.

My current wheels don’t support a 11 speed cassette, at least not most - if a 34 would but that’s maybe a good alternative too.

Otherwise it’s like $1100 for new wheels and an R7000 group. Ultegra would cost an extra $250 and I don’t think that’s probably worth it for me. I am okay with that option cause my work will pay for bike repairs, up to $175 per month but they allow for carry over from month to month. So I could get that done over six months. And the seventh for the labour to install it.

I’ll check out how much 4700 would cost too.

Originally Posted by cpach
Hangers are also very easy to bend, as they're designed as sacrificial parts that will bend or break instead of the frame or derailleur. Aligning hangers is extremely common and routine at a bike shop.

If the hanger is straight, the shifters work consistently, the cables and housing are new, etc, I'd check to see if there was significant wear to the derailleur itself. This would explain with absolutely new cables/housing and a perfect setup, it works, but after the slightest bit of time it works poorly. If you're a high mileage rider and have been riding the bike since 2011, it's quite likely that there's excessive play in the pivots, there's excessive friction in the B pivot, and it may have a slightly bent cage, etc. It's a pretty easy thing for a shop to swap out diagnostically.

An entirely new bike would be a little silly, in my opinion. If everything in the drivetrain is starting to significantly wear out, it may not be totally crazy to upgrade just the drivetrain of the bike.

If you're upgrading to 11 speed, be aware that it requires a different freehub than 10 speed. Being from 2011, your bike probably doesn't have an 11 speed freehub body, but it may or may not be upgradeable, or you might need a new wheel. If you want to use an 11-34 cassette those 11 speed cassettes will fit on a 10 speed freehub body. Or honestly current Tiagra 4700 runs better than 5700 ever did for what it's worth.
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Old 10-01-19, 09:12 AM
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Make sure the housings are in good condition. In my experience, the phrase "cable stretch" is really describing "housing compression", which changes the effective length of the run of the cable (which does not really stretch). Ensure the housings are in good condition, are long enough (no sharp bends), are seated correctly in the shifters and rear derailleur and frame (where required), have correct end caps in place, etc.

Get a decent work stand and practice and familiarise yourself with adjusting your cables and shifting. This way, you can fix things when they inevitably go slightly out of adjustment (entropy!).
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Old 10-01-19, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus
Morning Andy, Yeah, I put an ink mark from a felt tip pen on it and it rolls inward (threads in-clockwise) from the tension of the springs pulling on the cable. It turns really easy (too easy, in my opinion) but I don't want to cut the lead cable end off on the end of the cable at this point to put a lock nut on it. It can wait until I have other issues that require removing the cable.
The only barrel adjusters that I've seen thread in on their own are those at the top of the down tube where the casing has a twisting force with the steering of the bike (the bars being rotated will drag the casing along in this rotations). Most every commercially made adjuster has some sort of design to try to stop this. Shimano uses a spring loaded "nut" with little nubs that engage detents. Campy has the spring's ends engage a stationary washer's notched surface. But at the rear der end of the system there's very little rotational force acting on the casing and the barrel.

I had assumed you were talking about the der mounted adjuster. Are you? It is possible to induce a casing twist when turning the adjuster that later can make the adjuster return to it's previous state. Somehow I doubt this is going on though as it's pretty obvious.

As to lock nuts an adjusters here's a shot of my self made ones on the DT of my frames. The adjusters are common Dia Compe brake ones. Although I do snug the lock ring down I have not done so sometimes with no adjuster movements over time. Andy.
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Old 10-01-19, 11:54 AM
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Is there any play in your freehub?
Is the cassette tight on the freehub?
Is there any play in the rear hub?
Are the shifters worn, showing any signs of loose fittings?
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Old 10-01-19, 01:39 PM
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Yeah, R7000 with a 11-34 cassette would be great if you can swing it.
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Old 10-01-19, 03:29 PM
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How would I assess those things? Just see if the cassette slides left and right? Or in general is loose?

I don’t know how to tell if the shifters are worn. Loose fittings? How do I check that out?

Originally Posted by B.C.Bikes
Is there any play in your freehub?
Is the cassette tight on the freehub?
Is there any play in the rear hub?
Are the shifters worn, showing any signs of loose fittings?
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Old 10-01-19, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
OP- what are the problems? I don't see then stated. What is the cable routing? Internal/external? The vast majority of hangers are just one more stamped item in the industrial world and stamping is a coarse method of making something (think about cheap stamped der's or chain rings). We check every hanger we install and need to correct/tweak most all. Hangers will shift their alignment with the wheel's QR being tightened as the hanger and frame contact surfaces are not perfectly flat (see stamped reference above). But it sounds like a cable issue, friction changes over time.

bigbus- Have you places a witness mark on the adjuster to see if it's really rotating out of position from what it was set at? This is the only aspect a lock nut will solve. Andy
Hey Andy, I don't want to hijack BHDavis's thread here because I think he is asking good questions and someone will be giving him good advice real soon and hopefully he gets it figured out, but I wanted to show you the barrel adjuster that keeps rotating. I might have a nut with a cable slot around here somewhere, but I don't want to cut off the end of the cable to put a nut on it.
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Old 10-01-19, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus
I might have a nut with a cable slot around here somewhere, but I don't want to cut off the end of the cable to put a nut on it.
Nut plus Dremel abrasive wheel or hacksaw equals slotted nut.
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Old 10-01-19, 08:50 PM
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Hi-jack away.

Originally Posted by Bigbus
Hey Andy, I don't want to hijack BHDavis's thread here because I think he is asking good questions and someone will be giving him good advice real soon and hopefully he gets it figured out, but I wanted to show you the barrel adjuster that keeps rotating. I might have a nut with a cable slot around here somewhere, but I don't want to cut off the end of the cable to put a nut on it.
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Old 10-01-19, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus
Hey Andy, I don't want to hijack BHDavis's thread here because I think he is asking good questions and someone will be giving him good advice real soon and hopefully he gets it figured out, but I wanted to show you the barrel adjuster that keeps rotating. I might have a nut with a cable slot around here somewhere, but I don't want to cut off the end of the cable to put a nut on it.
Is that a SunTour der? If so then there's more then barrel adjuster moving issues to deal with over time I agree with dsbrantjr. Slot a nut. Andy
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Old 10-02-19, 06:04 AM
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OP - Check the B screw adjustment before you start spending a lot of cash. I had an identical shifting issue that was solved by adjusting the B screw and getting the derailleur's jockey wheel closer to the cassette. It was after a LBS mechanic had replaced a damaged long cage 105 with a Deore (the only thing he had in stock).
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Old 10-02-19, 12:44 PM
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Grab the cassette and try and move it side to side. If you feel any play or knocking then this might be either the cassette loose on the freehub, or play in the freehub. You can do the same with the wheel to see if the bearings need adjusting or replacing. Worn shifter internals could be the issue, especially if your mechanic has had a go at lubricating them. Could also be a poor run of the cable through the shifter, or along the handlebar. It's also worth checking if there's any play in the rear derailleur. 5700/5800 rear mechs can be an issue when the pivot bush is worn. You can check this by trying to wiggle it with your fingers.
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Old 10-02-19, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus
Hey Andy, I don't want to hijack BHDavis's thread here because I think he is asking good questions and someone will be giving him good advice real soon and hopefully he gets it figured out, but I wanted to show you the barrel adjuster that keeps rotating. I might have a nut with a cable slot around here somewhere, but I don't want to cut off the end of the cable to put a nut on it.
An earlier post said 105, is that correct? Is the adjuster original for this RD?

Seems that there is a notch below/alongside the screw hole. Some of the older Shimano RDs had a plastic piece that fit in the notch & a spring between the adjuster knob and the plastic. This kept the knob from rotating, my 6400 RD was this way.

Newer Shimanos have multiple shallow notches for the adjusters with detent.

A locknut would probably work.
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Old 10-02-19, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by KCT1986
An earlier post said 105, is that correct? Is the adjuster original for this RD?

Seems that there is a notch below/alongside the screw hole. Some of the older Shimano RDs had a plastic piece that fit in the notch & a spring between the adjuster knob and the plastic. This kept the knob from rotating, my 6400 RD was this way.

Newer Shimanos have multiple shallow notches for the adjusters with detent.

A locknut would probably work.
This bike was donated to me along with another and I moved a lot of pieces from one to the other to make a decent riding road bike (MTBs are really my thing). Best guess is that it's a late 80's Giant. Whether the parts are original or not is beyond me. My research determined that they came stk with 105's but yes, that's a Suntour der. I'll find or make a slotted nut for it as I only got about 10 miles today before it started acting up again. If that turns into a headache, I'll just have to cut the lead sinker off the end of the cable and find a regular nut to put in there and put another lead sinker on the cable (anti-fray). Thanks for everyone's help here. It looks like BCBikes gave BHDavis (OP) some good advice too.
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Old 10-02-19, 08:04 PM
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Another option is to bottom out the adjuster and install an inline one. Old adjuster won't move any longer with it's having no travel available and the inline one will serve as the cable tension adjuster.

BTW what shift levers and cassette/freewheel does the bike have. SunTour of that era wasn't Shimano compatible. Andy
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Old 10-02-19, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus
This bike was donated to me along with another and I moved a lot of pieces from one to the other to make a decent riding road bike (MTBs are really my thing). Best guess is that it's a late 80's Giant. Whether the parts are original or not is beyond me. My research determined that they came stk with 105's but yes, that's a Suntour der. I'll find or make a slotted nut for it as I only got about 10 miles today before it started acting up again. If that turns into a headache, I'll just have to cut the lead sinker off the end of the cable and find a regular nut to put in there and put another lead sinker on the cable (anti-fray). Thanks for everyone's help here. It looks like BCBikes gave BHDavis (OP) some good advice too.
If you try the nut route, the adjusters are usually M5. The thread pitch may be non-standard. These may be fine thread, 0.5 instead of the common 0.8.
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