In defense of powder coat
03-20-19, 12:52 PM
#51
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I believe that telling Gugie that his posting a perfectly reasonable thread on a bicycle enthusiast site is "taking his hobby way too seriously" is a bit rude. It just struck me as needlessly negative. Maybe I'm off 
Anyway back to the topic...
I think aesthetically it's a toss-up. I've seen powder that looks thin and wet like paint. I'm unconvinced there's a meaningful difference in rust prevention between the two (just about how much prep you put into it), but the point about removing the powder being very difficult is a good one.
Anyway back to the topic...
I think aesthetically it's a toss-up. I've seen powder that looks thin and wet like paint. I'm unconvinced there's a meaningful difference in rust prevention between the two (just about how much prep you put into it), but the point about removing the powder being very difficult is a good one.
2. I thought that the fact that it's difficulty to remove powder coating was a feature..
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03-20-19, 01:20 PM
#52
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Just to clarify again, my response was not directed toward you
03-20-19, 01:26 PM
#53
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I considered powder coat when I redid my '73 Super Course, but wasn't sure how the intricate Capella lugs would come out. I had already decided on a non-stock Toyota green paint color, that I couldn't find in powder coat. The paint had cured almost a year before last years Eroica ride. After the ride, I noticed several paint chips in places where there are usually no contact from everyday use. the fork had two chips on it, and behind the crank these was one in line with an inner chain ring bolt. I was sure I had plenty of clearance there. Next time, I'll give powder coat a closer look. I have another project, a '78 Super Course that is a decent "patina" bike, but I prefer nice and shiny. If I really like the bike, I may go for a stock color (more or less) gold.
M next project ... powder coat?
My '73 Super Course, automotive painted, with chips.
M next project ... powder coat?
My '73 Super Course, automotive painted, with chips.
Last edited by Slightspeed; 03-20-19 at 01:42 PM.
03-20-19, 01:39 PM
#54
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Sure, and I prefer flying first class and staying in luxury hotels. It's not going to stop me from flying to Hawaii coach and staying at a condo because I can't afford the 1%er vacation.
There are pros and cons to both. Surely powder coat is more durable and much more environmentallly friendly, as well as significantly less expensive. You've seen several examples of what I'd call comparable to wet paint examples, at significantly less cost. Also, most powder coaters turn around a frame in a few weeks - and I'm talking about the ones who know how to handle bike frames, not just any powder coater. All the really good wet painters that I know of have several months of backlog, and even then can't hit anywhere near a date.
If you're looking for wet paint quality, pay wet paint prices. If you've got a ratty 70's or 80's production frame, a powder coat will spruce it up nicely.
I'm not against wet paint at all. On rare occasion I have a frame that I think is worth the treatment.
I'm just a bit tired of reading the "don't powdercoat, it'll be crap, they'll hide the lug lines, fill bottle bosses, etc." crowd when I think a much more appropriate answer would be "it depends on where you send it". There are enough people on this forum that have had great experiences with certain powder coaters to recommend, hopefully local, but if you can't find a good bike powder coater locally, odds are you can't find a good wet painter locally as well, so shipping costs are a wash.
There are pros and cons to both. Surely powder coat is more durable and much more environmentallly friendly, as well as significantly less expensive. You've seen several examples of what I'd call comparable to wet paint examples, at significantly less cost. Also, most powder coaters turn around a frame in a few weeks - and I'm talking about the ones who know how to handle bike frames, not just any powder coater. All the really good wet painters that I know of have several months of backlog, and even then can't hit anywhere near a date.
If you're looking for wet paint quality, pay wet paint prices. If you've got a ratty 70's or 80's production frame, a powder coat will spruce it up nicely.
I'm not against wet paint at all. On rare occasion I have a frame that I think is worth the treatment.
I'm just a bit tired of reading the "don't powdercoat, it'll be crap, they'll hide the lug lines, fill bottle bosses, etc." crowd when I think a much more appropriate answer would be "it depends on where you send it". There are enough people on this forum that have had great experiences with certain powder coaters to recommend, hopefully local, but if you can't find a good bike powder coater locally, odds are you can't find a good wet painter locally as well, so shipping costs are a wash.
I've been trained and have experience using automotive paint.
Although it is the gold standard for many, wet paint is not the be-all end-all for every application. Neither is powdercoat.
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03-20-19, 01:55 PM
#55
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Yes, I knew that, I took no offense to any of these posts.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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03-20-19, 02:13 PM
#56
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Here's the powder coat I got on my custom frame. I talked to the boss of my local place and scrutinized the importance of a thin coat, he also opted for sanding instead of a media blast. I purchased the powder myself from Prismatic Powders.
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03-20-19, 02:26 PM
#57
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That is exceptional for PC. Well done advising your coater on the thinness!
As one who has a PC-ed frame (the red Super Tourer @gugie showed at the beginning of the thread), I'll weigh in by agreeing with everyone's points.
Honestly, though, if you're gonna ride the bike and it's not a super valuable or "historic" frame, get the PC. As with all things, if you've got the money and you've got to have it, then sure, get wet paint.
But PC is completely fine for a rider that's gonna get a bit dinged up in its lifetime. You feel less bad about leaning it against something abrasive, too.
As one who has a PC-ed frame (the red Super Tourer @gugie showed at the beginning of the thread), I'll weigh in by agreeing with everyone's points.
Honestly, though, if you're gonna ride the bike and it's not a super valuable or "historic" frame, get the PC. As with all things, if you've got the money and you've got to have it, then sure, get wet paint.
But PC is completely fine for a rider that's gonna get a bit dinged up in its lifetime. You feel less bad about leaning it against something abrasive, too.
03-20-19, 08:32 PM
#60
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Does the shop usually take care of removing original paint and treating any existing rust or is that typically on the bike owner?
03-20-19, 08:54 PM
#61
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Note that the frames I deal with aren't ultra-thin wall, so I have no experience powder coating them.
Lots of people read stuff, it makes sense, so it must be true. Don't believe everything you think. "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions" - Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.
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03-20-19, 08:59 PM
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the interaction of a wet applied primer ( especially a self etching primer) and an epoxy sealer is more money and more protection than powdercoat.
powdercoat encapsulates more than “ sticking to the steel” .
I will I’ll note that there are different brands and qualities of powdercoat grains. I’m sure that the temp cycle can play a part too.
03-20-19, 10:37 PM
#64
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
03-21-19, 01:38 AM
#65
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yes, rust can attack under any coating.
the interaction of a wet applied primer ( especially a self etching primer) and an epoxy sealer is more money and more protection than powdercoat.
powdercoat encapsulates more than “ sticking to the steel” .
I will I’ll note that there are different brands and qualities of powdercoat grains. I’m sure that the temp cycle can play a part too.
I agree with this. The things I've had powdercoated were done without any primer, which in my opinion is asking for trouble down the road in terms of rust starting underneath the paint, etc. They do make a powder primer, but my sense is it rarely is used as the powder sticks to the metal without it and it's just one more step in the process that powdercoaters aren't willing to do. Also I've found powdercoating to be very brittle in nature and easy to chip with the right kind of impact.
I personally would never have a bike frame powdercoated, but I have a bias because I restore cars for a living so I have all the equipment and materials to do a solvent paint job properly. I paint bike frames after priming them with a corrosion inhibiting primer (like epoxy) and I clear over decals to extend their life by giving them some protection. I think this is the only way to go on a bike that has value.
I suspect the temptation to have a bike frame powdercoated is due in part by the fact that it's easier (and probably cheaper) to find someone that will powdercoat a frame than to find someone (that knows what they're doing) willing to do a proper solvent paint job with the right primer, etc.
03-21-19, 05:19 AM
#66
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It was a response to the "it'll rust under" comment. Basically, I'm saying that if properly applied, no it won't & how long do you expect anything to last, anyway?
Of course poorly applied powder of a low grade will be less satisfactory than high quality, properly applied paint. But That's hardly news, rooted in bias & perpetuated by painters that feel the economic pressure of a competiting product.
03-21-19, 05:59 AM
#67
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I've used 5 different powder coaters in and around Portland. Every single one of them has/had experience powder coating bike frames. Every single one of them media blasted the frames, including any rust. BTW, none of them used walnut shells, btw. It ain't the media, necessarily, it's how you use it. I do a bit of framework, you can use an agressive file or a fine file, but it's more in the technique than the file, IMO.
Note that the frames I deal with aren't ultra-thin wall, so I have no experience powder coating them.
Lots of people read stuff, it makes sense, so it must be true. Don't believe everything you think. "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions" - Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.
Note that the frames I deal with aren't ultra-thin wall, so I have no experience powder coating them.
Lots of people read stuff, it makes sense, so it must be true. Don't believe everything you think. "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions" - Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.
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03-21-19, 07:13 AM
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I have been debating whether or not to strip this one or just live with it. The frame was purchased allready powder coated. It looks terrific from 10' away but up close I find the fine detail in the lug work to be lacking. What do you guys think?
Should I redo it at a signifacant cost or just leave it? It is a pretty rare bike.
Should I redo it at a signifacant cost or just leave it? It is a pretty rare bike.
Last edited by Wileyone; 03-24-19 at 10:03 AM.
03-21-19, 07:59 AM
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I've asked all the powder coaters I've used what they use, and why. Mostly it's something they already use, and is cheap. One used glass, the other some industrial slag, another actual sand. Right pressure and technique, you can probably get away with a lot of stuff.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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03-21-19, 08:02 AM
#70
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I have been debating whether or not to strip this one or just live with it. The frame was purchased allready powder coated. It looks terrific from 10' away but up close I find the fine detail in the lug work to be lacking. What do you guys think?
Should I redo it at a signifacant cost or just leave it? It is a pretty rare bike.
Should I redo it at a signifacant cost or just leave it? It is a pretty rare bike.
It seems quite silly to me that many here would prefer a scratched up original paint job over a decent and clean powder job.
03-21-19, 08:05 AM
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Here are a couple more: Stella done last year by a local shop that does a lot of commercial work. Was recommended by locals, but he does a better job on tractors and 4 wheelers than bikes. He did well at not going too thick, but there was lots of surface grit. I sanded with #600, then clear coat after Cyclomondo decals using Rustoleum for a pretty good finish and appearance from a distance, but up close looks like glossy orange peel surface in some places. Still looks good after 1 season of riding. Cost was $150 because of masking to preserve chrome. Don't know what his basic price would be without masking.
Second is a fillet brazed Motobecane done in 2007 at a new shop in Olympia, Wa. Cost was $60 and used transparent red over bare metal to give a chromovelato look. Decals from Cyclomondo were just done last year and I custom picked them from earlier model Moto decals I liked better than the ugly mid 80's originals. Also needed Columbus not Reynolds tubing decals for this model and got the whole set for his standard $45. I like how both turned out. Don't have any good close ups, need to do some of both bikes. Don
Second is a fillet brazed Motobecane done in 2007 at a new shop in Olympia, Wa. Cost was $60 and used transparent red over bare metal to give a chromovelato look. Decals from Cyclomondo were just done last year and I custom picked them from earlier model Moto decals I liked better than the ugly mid 80's originals. Also needed Columbus not Reynolds tubing decals for this model and got the whole set for his standard $45. I like how both turned out. Don't have any good close ups, need to do some of both bikes. Don
Last edited by ollo_ollo; 03-21-19 at 08:26 AM. Reason: add $ cost for Stella PC
03-21-19, 08:16 AM
#72
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$100 powder coat job on $100 frame. It has exceeded my expectations in every way. RAL 3003 Ruby Red.
Look at the lug details at the brake bridge. That's a very thin piece of metal that is still quite well-defined.
Last edited by HarborBandS; 03-21-19 at 08:27 AM.
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03-21-19, 08:21 AM
#73
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Most general purpose shops will default to basic polyester powder because it's the cheapest. While polyester isn't bad per say moving up to a more advanced coating such as polyurethane will significantly improve corrosion durability. I learned this through observing salt spray testing performed on various coatings being performed by a company I used to work for. Polyurethane powder is more expensive and most shops will charge accordingly though. I suppose it's all dependant on what you want and how much you're willing to pay.
03-21-19, 09:36 AM
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I powder coated my 1978 Trek TX 900; it came out nice. I'll need to dig up some pics . . .
03-21-19, 10:13 AM
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They do make a powder primer, but my sense is it rarely is used as the powder sticks to the metal without it and it's just one more step in the process that powdercoaters aren't willing to do. Also I've found powdercoating to be very brittle in nature and easy to chip with the right kind of impact.
I personally would never have a bike frame powdercoated, but I have a bias because I restore cars for a living so I have all the equipment and materials to do a solvent paint job properly. I paint bike frames after priming them with a corrosion inhibiting primer (like epoxy) and I clear over decals to extend their life by giving them some protection. I think this is the only way to go on a bike that has value.
I suspect the temptation to have a bike frame powdercoated is due in part by the fact that it's easier (and probably cheaper) to find someone that will powdercoat a frame than to find someone (that knows what they're doing) willing to do a proper solvent paint job with the right primer, etc.
I personally would never have a bike frame powdercoated, but I have a bias because I restore cars for a living so I have all the equipment and materials to do a solvent paint job properly. I paint bike frames after priming them with a corrosion inhibiting primer (like epoxy) and I clear over decals to extend their life by giving them some protection. I think this is the only way to go on a bike that has value.
I suspect the temptation to have a bike frame powdercoated is due in part by the fact that it's easier (and probably cheaper) to find someone that will powdercoat a frame than to find someone (that knows what they're doing) willing to do a proper solvent paint job with the right primer, etc.
As far as you finding PC to be very brittle and easy to chip, compared to wet paint, I've found exactly the opposite. My purpose-built gravel grinder is ridden almost exclusively on gravel roads. I can hear rocks ping on the frame from time to time, and there are zero chips in the paint, whereas my Ed Litton wet sprayed, catalyzed, clear coated frame has several chips in it from similar riding - which is why I don't take it on gravel anymore.
If I had a paint booth and was set up to do it myself, almost all of my bike frames would be wet painted as well! If you can come within 2X of the average cost of a powder coat, I'll send as much business your way that I can!
As far as "the only way to go on a bike that has value", value is in the eye of the beholder.
I'm glad that we've had a spirited discussion about powder vs wet paint. It's pointed out the pros and cons of both, and what to watch out for.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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