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Toe clips and slotted cleats, defying logic

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Toe clips and slotted cleats, defying logic

Old 08-02-20, 08:05 PM
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toe clip buttons

You need a set of toe clip buttons. That way you leave the end of the strap loose with the button near the end.

You reach down with one hand to tighten. The button makes this easier because you're pulling on it.

When you need to get out, you have two options: (1) push the buckle open by reaching down with your hand or (2) **** panic time and pull up like hell with your foot. (1) always works, (2) only works if you have enough adrenaline going.

If you can't get out, it's not the end of the world. You're generally better off falling with the bike and making sure that your large fleshy bits scrape along the pavement. Just don't try to break your fall with your wrist. You did shave your legs before trying out your toe clips and straps with cleated shoes, right? This will make the clean up after the fall go a lot easier.

Find a set of these in whatever color rocks your boat and learn to embrace road rash.


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Old 08-03-20, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by top506
IIRC, 7400 pedals used a proprietary Shimano cleat.
Shimano did offer a proprietary cleat for that style pedal/clip, but they work fine with regular slotted cleats as well. @Ex Pres has a nice picture of the Shimano cleat in the "For Sale" section:


https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...plete-set.html

I use Dura-Ace 7400 pedals on my fixed gear with regular slotted cleats on vintage (pre-clipless) Vittoria leather shoes, and they work fine. I suspect that either the aforementioned strap or an excessively tall toe box on the shoe, or both, may be a source of the trouble @rosefarts is experiencing.
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Old 08-03-20, 10:32 AM
  #28  
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Velcro straps really suck with clips and straps.

Get laced shoes.
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Old 08-03-20, 10:38 AM
  #29  
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Thanks for all the hints.

I tried to change one thing at a time, to better know what the problem was.

First I messed with the leather straps on the pedals. I untwisted one section and raised the buckle. I think the twist was there to keep the strap from migrating around but I wanted every bit of slack available. At this point, getting into the pedals was physically possible but I needed to lift the cage with my hands to clear the cleats.

Next I removed the front Velcro strap and put the laces back. The laces were only out to keep them glue free for a recent trip to the cobbler.

This had two minor changes that added to something big. First, the strap can hang up, so I'd have to force into the pedal. This didn't happen a lot in my monkeying around but it's on the right track. The second change that was kinda huge was that the Velcro was bolted to the bottom of the shoe, under the cleat. This made the cleat angle up more. So the forward edge of the cleat was already a bad ramp, this made it more of a wall. With this gone, it became possible to get in and out, though still a pain.

I may grind the cleat into a gentler ramp.

I've got the bike on a trainer to mess with angles and I think I've got it.

To the people who suggested filing out the groove or cleat covers because of wear, had you read or looked at the pics, you'd have seen a nearly new cleat. Possibly an issue in the future but certainly nothing to do with the current situation.

I'll have an opportunity to ride tomorrow, I'm a little nervous about a big day with zero float but I'll try it.

These are pretty comfy shoes, long term I'll probably put Keo cleats on them, once I've gotten my jollies from the toe clips.

Maybe I'll clean the garage next

Last edited by rosefarts; 08-03-20 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 08-03-20, 01:40 PM
  #30  
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Early in this post, you mentioned changing pedals. Below is a poster of Mark Allen, the guy who was the athlete that Nike associated with the product. Not a great shot of the pedals, but those sure look like clipless to me. Why make things harder than they need to be? You can switch and you will be using the shoes the way 90+% were used.

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Old 08-03-20, 01:49 PM
  #31  
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Mr Spadoni,

You're right, and clipless was in circulation during this vintage. eBay has some great Dura Ace 7401 pedals and similar Look from the same time (they're all look actually). I've also got old but not vintage Keo and Delta's in a box. I've been riding Keo with modern shoes on this bike since I got it.

I just wanted to get a few rides in with the bike basically as it was delivered. I'm 100% certain that I'll switch back to clipless soon enough. It's not just riding, it's also entertainment.
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Old 08-03-20, 01:53 PM
  #32  
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Sounds to me like the cleats are in the wrong place. Take the cleats off and go for a ride on the road long enough that the pedal cage marks the sole of the shoe. That's where the cleat slot goes.
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Old 08-03-20, 02:43 PM
  #33  
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This is probably already said but here goes anyway. Those shoes are set up for LOOK stye 3-bolt cleats. Get the Exustar $20 aluminum track cleats. Probably the best slotted cleats ever made.

Now, the drawback to aluminum cleats is that they kill aluminum pedal rattraps. ie the cherished Super Record pedals. Chrome steel rattraps go forever with aluminum cleats, the two together get excellent purchase and easy out once you loosen the straps.

The above was said with 150,000 miles of experience with slotted aluminum cleats and chrome steel pedals, and about 45,000 on the Exustar cleats. Not because I am retro-grouch or loony but because I started using cleats long before clipless, have to have no-float pedals and I LOVE riding fix gear. With slotted aluminum cleats and quality straps pulled tight, my feet do not come off the pedals. The ongoing nightmare i have is pulling a foot at 45 mph and having that foot, ankle or calf slammed by the pedal driven by my entire weight with amplified through the gear ratio. (I also get to hit the road hard, but the pedal will do life long damage to that leg. I'll probably heal up in time from the road rash and broken bones.)

Google Exustar. Easy to find. (I want enough people to ride those cleats that Exustar keeps making them.)

Ben
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Old 08-03-20, 02:49 PM
  #34  
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Funny you mention Exustar. I nearly ate it hard the other day on my mountain bike when my foot unexpectedly pulled out of an Exustar SPD copy.

I've got two sets of their pedals on different bikes. Overall I like them. That little mishap could be a worn cleat. I haven't tackled that issue yet.
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Old 08-03-20, 02:57 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jiangshi
I rode those pedals for years. Your problem is the shoes. You need shoes that lace only. The straps are your problem.
If you love the shoes but hate the laces straps (proof reader needed) - go to Tandy Leather, buy a grommet kit, cut off the straps and install laces. My two favorite pairs are de-strapped and laced. One pair with slotted cleats, one with clipless.

Get the smallest or next to smallest brass grommets. Don't even think about the aluminum ones. Once you have the grommet tool ($10), $10 will cover grommets and laces for future shoes. Not only will this make pedal pickup far easier, it will also improve shoe comfort radically. (You'll be wondering "why didn't they do this before" until you remember they did. For 100 years. Until triathlons and Velcro came along.)

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Old 08-03-20, 06:01 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
Mr Spadoni,

You're right, and clipless was in circulation during this vintage. eBay has some great Dura Ace 7401 pedals and similar Look from the same time (they're all look actually). I've also got old but not vintage Keo and Delta's in a box. I've been riding Keo with modern shoes on this bike since I got it.

I just wanted to get a few rides in with the bike basically as it was delivered. I'm 100% certain that I'll switch back to clipless soon enough. It's not just riding, it's also entertainment.
Understand the desire to preserve and honor the history of the bike but please try to to preserve the actual bike and yourself. If the cleats don’t disengage easily, you or the bike will get damaged. The cleats, if they fit, should slip off the cages easily. Try sliding they onto the pedals while they are NOT attached to the shoes. If they don’t, that’s problem one. If the cleats hit the pedal spindle, they are not designed with those pedals in mind and will nit work. The Shimano pedal was an outlier in its profile. The designer probably never even took its shape into account when they made the cleat. Design for a Campy pedal, and they would have covered 95% of the market.
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Old 08-03-20, 10:11 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts
Thanks for all the hints.

. . .These are pretty comfy shoes, long term I'll probably put Keo cleats on them, once I've gotten my jollies from the toe clips.

. . .

I still think those shoes, even without the straps, have too much "contour" on the uppers: those transitions between the mesh panels and the leather provide nooks and crannies for the pedal's toe strap to get snagged on as you are inserting or extracting your foot. Especially true if there is also something weird about the interface between cleat and pedal as you and other posters have suggested. Really the cleated shoe should just slide smoothly in under the toe clip to engage when you press down, and then should easily extract when you lift your heel (plantar-flexing the ankle) to clear the cleat off the pedal edge. And yes, if the toe strap is pulled snug it is harder to extract unless you have time (after you realize you forgot to loosen it) to give a mighty lift with your hip flexors (while still plantar-flexing the ankle.) Anything that can possibly foul the movement of the shoe off the pedal will mess you up in this split-second manoeuvre. Once you get the cleat released, your foot should just fall free, with no wiggling past secondary obstructions.

Everyone I knew, including me, fell over at least once at a stop light (to the great mirth of all witnesses) while learning to ride with just straps (never mind cleats) and we all fell over again when trying later to learn clipless.
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Old 08-04-20, 03:59 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by bikemig
You need a set of toe clip buttons. That way you leave the end of the strap loose with the button near the end.

You reach down with one hand to tighten. The button makes this easier because you're pulling on it.

When you need to get out, you have two options: (1) push the buckle open by reaching down with your hand or (2) **** panic time and pull up like hell with your foot. (1) always works, (2) only works if you have enough adrenaline going.

If you can't get out, it's not the end of the world. You're generally better off falling with the bike and making sure that your large fleshy bits scrape along the pavement. Just don't try to break your fall with your wrist. You did shave your legs before trying out your toe clips and straps with cleated shoes, right? This will make the clean up after the fall go a lot easier.

Find a set of these in whatever color rocks your boat and learn to embrace road rash.

those work, Masi took the last bit of strap and folded it back and under and used a rivet (like used to close a belt at the buckle)
found what I needed at a store called Random. The inventory was just that!
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Old 08-04-20, 04:56 PM
  #39  
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I believe I saw that you (the OP) are using Campy SR pedals or similar. Two tricks that makes getting into pedals much easier. First, a big tab that is easy to flip. The little Campy point on the rattrap doesn't cut it. Several pedals over the years have gotten that right. The Leotard Platform being the best known. Goggle it and take a look.

If you have access to an electric drill (drillpress is nice but not necessary) and a sturdy Bench vise, you can make your own tab. Go to Home Depot and buy a length of 1/2" x 1/8" steel flat bar. Cut 1-3/4" pieces. Put them into the vise and hammer each one into an "L". 1-1/4" high and 1/2" across the bottom. Drill the middle of the short end for the screws you intend to use. File a nice round to the long end. Curve that end down using the Leotard as a guide. (Not critical. I just put one bend in roughly half way) Get screws that threads into the holes for pedal reflectors or a smaller screw and have the washers and nuts. (I've even used large washers and run the screws through the triangular lightening openings when screw holes weren't present. (In your drilling and bending, allow for having the tab sit low enough that your cleat can seat fully on the pedal. I've had this require a bend so close to screw I've had to grind the top of the screw head (looking from the side) down to fit the tab.. Nice part is that I no longer need a screwdriver on the screw!

Having done the above, you will now need to add weight to the front to get the toeclips to hang down properly. You can simply use longer toeclip screws (very common metric screws at Ace Hardware and many other places as well as all bicycle shops). Now, using those longer screws, simply add large, heavy washers, Keep adding until toeclip pickup is easy.

I do this as a matter of course for all of my fix gears, all of which run toeclips and straps. (I've never pulled my foot out of a toeclipped and strapped pedal, even when I've pulled the cleat out and hope to never have that happen. But this means I''ll be doing the fix gear pedal pickup with toeclips and straps a few more years. That additional weight makes it SO much easier! And stopped on a hard hill on a hard, many mile ride, getting that pedal first or second try is worth 10 pounds on the bike, easily! It's that repeated missed pickup on a 10%er that will have you fried. That ounce you added - worth its weight in gold if you are there only once! Never mind that you'll be thanking yourself every light you didn't trackstand.

Oh, those shoes look just fine once you get the basics in order. My Lakes aren't very different and pickup wasn't all that much harder with the three straps. Other details - toeclips need to be high enough at the back for easy entrance. Metal ones often get bent down and need to be pulled back up. Somewhat stiff straps also make things easier.

I ran Leotard Platforms on my fix gear for decades. Took those tabs and the weight balance for granted. When they went by the wayside, it took me not very long to figure that I needed to do something to the much more traditional replacements.

Ben
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Old 08-04-20, 05:13 PM
  #40  
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Pictures, you maniac, pictures. While you're at it, how bout a picture of the shoes rebuilt for laces too!
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Old 08-04-20, 06:49 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I believe I saw that you (the OP) are using Campy SR pedals or similar. Two tricks that makes getting into pedals much easier. First, a big tab that is easy to flip. The little Campy point on the rattrap doesn't cut it.
OP said he is running Shimano PD-7400 pedals, which are somewhat unique. But they do have a tab quite similar to the one on Campagnolo pedals.

VeloBase.com - Component: Shimano PD-7400, Dura-Ace

Several pedals over the years have gotten that right. The Leotard Platform being the best known. Goggle it and take a look.
I suspect you mean the Lyotard model 23 "Marcel Berthet" pedal:

VeloBase.com - Component: Lyotard Marcel Berthet (later type)

The long, broad tab makes it easy to flip the pedal and get your shoe in the clip. But they've been out of production since the mid-1980s. The MKS "Urban Platform" pedals are modern clones of the old mod. 23 pedal, lighter weight, sealed bearings and a nice one-piece aluminum body that won't work loose like the old, riveted Lyotards sometimes did, but are not compatible with slotted cleats, which the OP stated would be used.


https://www.mkspedal.com/?q=en/product/node/56
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Old 08-05-20, 01:21 AM
  #42  
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I ran those bottom Leotards for decades. Loved them except 1) the tab didn't go very far into the cleat and wore out cleats fast and 2) if you pulled hard to climb fix gear you loosened the peened (sp) metal fits (which you can see on the four corners on the photo. Also every time you scraped a left pedal the dust cap flew off. All my dead rights got robbed for the next left. For years I had a large box of dead Leotards, all with loose corners and no dust caps.

I now run the chromed steel rattrap versions of the Shimanos in your middle photo with the tabs I wrote about above. They are an easier pickup than a Campy Record or SR but not much and very hard to do reliably on a fix gear until you pull my tricks. Shimano made a bunch of those style pedals at several model levels. I never saw a pair new out of the box or the literature so I know nothing of their history or hierarchy. Been riding them the past 20 years or so. Buy them when I see them and ride the ones that work. Best bike now has a mismatched set. Plastic cover to the outboard bearing on one, not on the other. Seems that some come apart for service and others do not.

Those Shimanos,of any level with the chromed rattraps and my modification are sweet fix gear pedals. Absolutely love them. (Just came home from 40 miles on them. New toestraps, need new cleats. That pair is from 2 summers ago! Shows how much I've been riding.)

Some of those pedals come with a simple triangular plate to anchor the toeclip. Others the shaped plate of your photo to lock into for track racing, When I get those I either use the older plates I have or cut those plates down to flat. (I ride them into the ground so it's not like I am spoiling someone's find. Good thing is that it takes far longer to kill those pedals than the Leotards.)
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Old 08-05-20, 01:23 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Last ride 76
Pictures, you maniac, pictures. While you're at it, how bout a picture of the shoes rebuilt for laces too!
Thie maniac doesn't do digital photos. If you want to come over and shoot some, please do.
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Old 08-05-20, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I now run the chromed steel rattrap versions of the Shimanos in your middle photo with the tabs I wrote about above. They are an easier pickup than a Campy Record or SR but not much and very hard to do reliably on a fix gear until you pull my tricks. Shimano made a bunch of those style pedals at several model levels. I never saw a pair new out of the box or the literature so I know nothing of their history or hierarchy. Been riding them the past 20 years or so. Buy them when I see them and ride the ones that work. Best bike now has a mismatched set. Plastic cover to the outboard bearing on one, not on the other. Seems that some come apart for service and others do not.
There were at least three models of Shimano pedals that used the proprietary 3-bolt toeclip. "105" pedals had a plastic end cap with standard cup and cone bearings. "600" pedals also used cup and cone bearings, but had a blind outboard bearing to allow slightly better ground clearance. Dura-Ace pedals went one better with a blind outboard bearing and roller bearings to get an even lower profile and better ground clearance. All were user-servicable, but the blind-spindle 600 and Dura-Ace models needed a special wrench to open and adjust the bearings, Shimano TL-PD30:
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Old 08-05-20, 10:26 AM
  #45  
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I actually have that tool for the pedals. It's definitely my most specialty tool.

Anyway, I hit a major snag. I went for a couple hours yesterday and had no issue. Mostly empty road but 2 miles of city to get out and back. I didn't have any issue and totally think this would work.

However, upon returning home, I noticed the recently repaired shoe was separating from the sole again. I've gotten the impression that these weren't great shoes. I don't think the local cobbler was in his element in fixing these either.

I opted for a mechanical connection using two provided vent holes and one I drilled. I drizzled a bunch of plastic/leather/vinyl cement into the gap and bolted them together. The bolts are permanent, set with loctite. It's a solid connection to the shoe that isn't going anywhere. Shockingly, non of the bolts are felt through the insole.

It does make it impossible or impractical to use toe clips or slotted cleats, it's pretty much clipless only now.


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Old 08-05-20, 04:31 PM
  #46  
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First off rather a lot of us used slotted cleats with clips and straps and also used a variety of clipless and never once fell. Not because of shoes. Given the C&V demographic now is not a good time to learn about road rash. If falling was automatically a part of the program it would make no sense to encourage anyone to use these artifacts.

Mark Allen and the TC shoe. It all comes back now. The photo is blurred because he never used that shoe. They came apart and wore out instantly. Nothing but problems. If you stick with this nonfunctional shoe you can’t get there from here.
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Old 08-05-20, 06:11 PM
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Yep, most of the Spectrum time capsule has been amazing but the shoes aren't good. I've got the Carbon sole bontragers that look like something from Eroica, so I can always ride those with Keo's.
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