Originally Posted by Standalone

Originally Posted by halfspeed

Is the Neuvation "retail price" an actual retail price or BikesDirect style retail price?

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

Looks like it hasn't come a long way, actually. Seems to be right about where it usually was.

Originally Posted by SirKronan

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.... are you just playin' with us? Seeing how long we will keep this up with you? I really hope not, but I'm beginning to wonder. You say "hundreds cheaper" but Neuvation is ALSO having a SALE PRICE!! The MSRP of the F100 alloy is $4489!! You have really gone off the deep end here, man! I am sure it's a quality product, the the "arguably better price" simply DOES NOT EXIST. Fuji sells bikes through some mail order vendors, but you can also pick them up at your LBS, which is going to be a HUGE advantage to some. And even if you're talking alloy bikes, you are still going to tie, at best, the Fuji. Take the top end alloy Roubaix 1.0:

https://www.performancebike.com/bikes...400784__400784

It's a sick alloy bike. To get the same quality wheels, frame, full carbon fork w/carbon steerer, etc. you are looking at your $2355 Neuvation that you mentioned above. That Fuji is $1100 with a 105 grouppo. You purchase this from the same performance bike shop:

https://www.performancebike.com/bikes...=c&cagpspn=pla

Di2 upgrade kit for $1300 + $1100 = $2400 for your "entry Fuji" alloy bike with a Di2. Not a fair comparison, you say? I beg to differ, because although a Fuji alloy bike doesn't come stock with Di2, both my local bike shop in Idaho Falls AND the Performance Bike shop will component swap for FREE if you buy the bike and components with them. They make money on both items, and it's a locally sold bike, so they'll do it for you happily, and you've got a stinking 105 setting there that you can sell or keep for spare parts. In addition, you'll get $240 to spend on whatever you want at Performance bike in the shop or on the web later. You won't get that with Neuvation.

Take your worst case scenario numbers, full retail prices for the Di2 upgrade kit and Fuji bike and what do you get? $1530 MSRP for bike + $1600 MSRP for group upgrade kit = $3130 for FULL RETAIL on a Fuji.
FULL RETAIL Neuvation according to their own website: $4489 (and that's without the full carbon steer tube which the Fuji has stock).

Neuvation LOSES AGAIN ACROSS THE BOARD. LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE. LOSE ON SALE (if you count the points you get back). LOSE ON MSRP. Even if you order the bike online and the upgrade kit online, my local bike shop will charge $60 to finish assembling the bike, Fuji OR Neuvation, so it's a wash there. At least at your local performance store they build it for you. The Neuvation you have to build or pay the $60 (or more) for your LBS to do it, thereby negating any small price advantage it had. And if you're going to pay them to finish assembling the bike, they can probably do the Di2 component swap on the Fuji while they're finishing the assembly, and my LBS includes making sure the shifters are all tuned and working properly as part of the package. I know each LBS can be different, but I'm basing it one what I can purchase here. And you STILL get the Performance bike credit to spend $240 - 30 for membership, still $210 to spend on shorts, jerseys, a trainer, whatever you want, which is probably better priced at Performance Bike already anyways.

Seriously, man. This is getting old, and you are making no sense. Back in the day Neuvation was very price-competitive, but now Fuji is playing hard and putting out some seriously awesome frames for your buck. They are definitely every bit the value prop that Neuvation is currently, and in all the cases I laid out for you, the Fuji is clearly the better value. I know some people like plain, subdued bikes without the branding. I respect that. And I would never fault you for getting a Neuvation if that's what you want. It's a free country.

But you keep touting this mystical nonexistent "arguably better price" that you're SURE Neuvation has, but the numbers simply do NOT back it up on any level of bike they are selling right now. I'm not saying that they won't later, or that Fuji prices won't start going up as they start seeing more success with their newer frames and competitive pricing winning people back over to the brand, but right now there is no arguably better price with neuvation for Di2 or carbon bikes vs. Fuji that I can see. Go crunch some numbers, Adriano. Seriously.

Don't worry. I still value you and your input, but I've tried as hard as I can to justify in my feeble mind where you are coming from, and I just can't see it, my man!

Peace!



What???

Originally Posted by adriano

again, those performance numbers are not retail prices, but on that sale, no doubt great deals for new stuff. im not aware of neuvation ever selling for the quoted retail price a la bikesdirect, and perhaps youve found the same case for fuji with all these performance sales.

i do my own assembly and tuning so i dont mentally factor that into pricing, but if you need to pay for that and have qualms about mail order, its definitely an advantage to brick and mortar though you better be tipping nicely for free service!

interestingly some people prefer metal steerers, but they are no doubt heavier. neuvation makes that an easy change, but these days perhaps they should make the carbon steerer the standard option.

there are a lot of closeish, which is why its always arguable, comparisons that can be made, and neither brand wins across the board as you claim fuji does. neuvation does have the cheapest off the rack di2 at retail, and fuji does have the cheaper carbon di2 on sale today, 2013/10/9. noting the year is important in this thread.

i dont own and have never owned a neuvation, but i see that you do own a fuji. i might join the club, but neither a fuji or a neuvation is slated next for me.

Originally Posted by SirKronan

Ok, now I'm starting to see your view. I'm sure they're both good bikes, and like you, I don't see why I'd need to put a bag over my head to ride a neuvation. I don't think they look bad at all. I don't mind the simpler subdued looks.

Originally Posted by halfspeed

The real question is whether the bag goes over or under the helmet.

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh

Well, given that the Milky Way rotates at about 220km, per second, and the whole Galaxy is moving at 600km a second, Fuji is hell of a long way from where it used to be.

Originally Posted by halfspeed

The real question is whether the bag goes over or under the helmet.

Originally Posted by adriano

then shades over or under bag?

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

Shades under bag, so you can take the bag off for the run, after you're not near the ugly bike.

Originally Posted by adriano

haha, though the neuvation f100 and the cervelo f1 were both made in the same factory, caribou, with the similar geometry and tubing.

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

You mean S1, not F1.

Also, there's more to appearance than geometry and factory. In fact, they're not even the most important. I'm a big opponent of all-black bikes in general (I've said so numerous times here, so Neuvation starts behind the 8-ball for me anyway. Further, the specific black paint they use is very glossy, which is my least favorite kind of black. Then, they don't add any coloration or accent to it besides their name, in outlined characters, in an awful font. Not a big fan of curved forks, either. The Cervelo wins on all those fronts to me, on visuals.

Besides, my S1 doesn't look like the anodized black one you showed (though I do like that one, with its white accents). This is what mine looks like:


If you asked a random person if my bike looked like the F100, they'd say no. Design matters.

Originally Posted by adriano

s1, no doubt.

the visual nod i too give to the cervelo by a good margin. while factory and geometry generally do not contribute majorly to appearance, they are of course quite important attributes of actual function!

if a layperson were given these two models even in the differing colors, theyd say there were very similar, particularly compared to any fuji discussed here, thanks to that distinguishing aero downtube, but yes, the cervelo aesthetic is much more pleasing.

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug

Ok hold on. You're shifting goalposts again. I said the F100 is ugly as sin. You responded that it came out of the same factory and looked similar to my S1. On being pressed, you agreed that the Cervelo looks "much more pleasing". So why, the hell, did you bother claiming it looked similar to my S1, and what does the factory have to do with it at all?