cyccommute 

Who has crashed into a Saguaro and who has done it more than once?

mr_bill

I didn't crash into a Saguaro - more than once. But yes someone went off into a cactus bush, google it. (Only once though. I think they would say the best way to crash into a cactus it to not to.)

Bottom line.

Instead of learning how to land from a crash after hitting a pothole, how about learning how to ride around potholes and NOT crash? That's the way we do it here in Boston, because, potholes.

(Like I said, I get pissed off at myself when I flat on them.)

-mr. bill

theDirtyLemon

Sure sure, we only pave every other road down here in the bay too, pothole avoidance is important. But the guy asked about falling down.

mr_bill

You don't understand. Paved roads around here just mean thar be potholes. Pothole avoidance is important, but more importantly, what to do with a pothole you DIDN'T avoid is even more important.

If I crashed over and over and over and over and over and over and over again on potholes, am I an expert in rolling with the flow, or am I just a fool who hasn't learned how to cope with potholes?

Like I said, I'm pissed when I flat on a pothole. Crashing on a pothole?

-mr. bill

cyccommute 

Then why bring it up? Yea, there’s video of a woman crashing into a cholla cactus. But that has no bearing on the discussion.

In a perfect world, yes, not crashing is optimal. But the world isn’t perfect. Swerving to avoid every pothole could just as easily lead to a crash as riding into one. Sometimes you just don’t see them. If you ride into one, sometimes you can recover afterwards, sometimes not. If you can’t recover and you crash, it’s better to know at least a little bit about how to crash without causing major injury than to be clueless as to what to do. And if you want to learn how to crash without causing major injury, it might be better to heed the advice of someone who has some experience with crashing. Saying “don’t crash” is hardly helpful.

From my own personal experience, I’ve never crashed because I hit a pothole. I’ve never even damaged a bike because of a pothole. In the grand scheme of things, pothole in roadways are never worse than something I’d run across while mountain biking.

theDirtyLemon

I cannot meaningfully respond to this without going down The Path of Toxic Internet Forum Pedantry. However, I don't think there's anything awfully wrong with providing the insights that were asked for. Nor with giving advice on how to handle potholes one does hit, if you feel like it.

63rickert

So falling down frequently proves ability to ride a bike. We should all learn from the guy who falls all the time.

How does that work with cars? The best driving instructor would be the guy who has demonstrated an ability to crash a lot of cars. Except the guy who crashes a lot of cars can no longer purchase insurance.

I am 68 years old. If I fall the chances of unpleasant injury are high. I can’t accept the “wisdom” that crashing is automatically part of cycling. Were there even a 5% chance of a fall in any given year it would be time to hang up the bike for good. Lots of people ride bikes in their 70s and more than a few ride in their 80s.

My coach has less than 15% bone mass in his vertebrae. If he falls he dies. He’s the one with over 40 years no accidents. One of his favorites is “If you plan to fall you will.”

Cycling is fundamentally safe. Bicycles are massively stable. It is possible to learn to ride a bike.

DrIsotope

It's fun to claim that obvious outliers are representative of a statistical group, innit?

Everything in post #57 is hyperbolic rhetoric (in which reality bends to the will of opinion,) and should be taken not with a grain, but with an appropriately heavy sprinkling of salt.

Notso_fastLane

The thing about all the (mostly correct) advice about how to fall is that unless you practice it until it becomes muscle memory, it's not going to help you.

In a fall with lateral velocity, you want to roll. Rollin usually implies leading with an arm/hand, but you have to keep your elbow bent so it acts like a shock absorber, then guide the roll onto that shoulder, across your back to the opposite hip, and either roll back to your feet or stop in a sitting or laying position. I've got over 30 years of martial arts experience, and probably thousands of falls in that training. I've crash a dozen times (more than half of which were from cars hitting me) and I can usually tell by where the road rash is whether I rolled properly or not.

Thing is, even with all the training and practice, some falls simply 'don't work' with any of that. Low sides usually happen so quickly, and at such an awkward angle that there's little to nothing you can do except either slide, or tuck your arms and roll (watch some motorcycle racing to see what I mean, happens all the time).

You can practice it, but I would recommend learning from someone who knows what they're doing, even if you just go practice on your own.

Also. And this is important: Try not to crash!

FiftySix

Drivers license instructors versus Racing instructors is one thought.

Crashing while pushing the limits of the equipment (or the cyclist themself) versus crashing while being hamfisted (or having lack of coordination) are two different things. I figure, the cyclist that pushed their limits and increased their capability on a bike has more skill than the cyclist that has been cautious their entire life.

I crashed much more as a kid or young adult because I took more chances while learning the limits of what I could do. Now that I'm middle aged, I don't push those limits hardly at all. Shoot, I don't even try and ride wheelies anymore, I only pop the front up to clear obstacles on occasion.

Basically, I used to crash often (especially off road) and now I'm essentially crash free. Some of that being crash free is due to skills I learned long ago.

Edit to add: Added anecdote text got bounced out by the forum as it does so very frequently. Not going to rewrite it.

cyccommute 

Just falling down isn’t the point. Knowing how to fall without getting injured is the point. If someone just falls over because they aren’t capable of keeping the bike upright, no, we shouldn’t try to learn from them. If someone crashes because they are pushing the limits of the equipment and learning how to ride better, yes, we should listen to them.

A good driving instructor should know how to get out of emergency situations and what to do in them. That doesn’t mean that he crashes a lot but that he knows what to do when things go south. Anyone can teach you how to drive in a straight line on smooth roads. A good instructor will teach you what to do when the road curves and is covered with slick stuff like rain, snow and ice. That knowledge and experience only comes from experience.

I’m not much younger than you. I still crash occasionally because I’m still pushing the limits. (That’s where the fun lives.) I’ve also spent 40+ years of riding at that edge. I’m not afraid of crashing nor would I say that a 50% chance of crashing would stop me from riding because I’ve crashed before and realize that I could again. I just know how to do it so I don’t have to be afraid of crashes.

Here’s one for you: “If you never plan on falling, you are in for a big surprise!”

Yes, cycling is fundamentally safe. It can be made safer. But I would never say that bicycles are “massively stable.” I wouldn’t even say they are relatively stable. They are high center of gravity machines that are balanced a narrow strip of rubber and that depend on the spinning wheels to keep them upright. It takes just a gentle push to topple them over. It’s somewhat astounding that they do as well as they do.

woofy

Best advice: learn to roll. It protects your head, dissipates the force of the fall. They do teach it in martial arts. First thing. That along with skateboarding and skiing taught me how to fall. Only ever broke one bone and it was in a fall where I could not roll.

I will say this. I went down recently at 20 mph. I was wearing performance fabrics, long sleeves and leggings. The fabric did not shred and the hard point “touches” you tend to make in a roll resulted in more clean burns than ragged road rash. Nothing broken, no road rash, just some friction burns. Oh and soreness. .

subgrade

Sadly that is not true, I can assure from my own experience.

BlazingPedals

Butt-surfing is NOT my favorite sport. But sometimes I do it anyway.

FREEBIRD1

That's exactly how my last crash happened, going slow about 4-5 MPH, hit a slippery spot of dried mud (wet underneath), front wheel washed out, and I was on the pavement within .5 second. No anticipation time. ER trip, elbow cut to the bone, really sore shoulder and arm. I was lucky to be going slow, my upper body seemed to take most of the impact, helmet saved more damage, my head bounced as well. I ride my recumbent more now and wear elbow pads, I had a few close calls on the bents, but they are lower to the ground, and I seem to be able to get my legs in a stabilizing position way faster. This was a leisurely, slow relaxed ride on a trail, don't fool yourself, it will happen. I'm probably a few years off from getting a trike, falling from 30 or so inches to the pavement is the reality/risk riding upright bicycles.

FiftySix

RiceAWay

In my experience the times when I've fallen are when I've taken my eyes off of the road or I had a bike that wouldn't handle the cornering speed. (But the later may be that I was scaring myself so not pushing it hard enough to corner which is unusual for me.) On the hard or dangerous stuff you pay strict attention. The best advice above is to always hold on to the handlebars. Broken ankles are possible but you don't want disabilities from hands and fingers being broken. That said, I've fallen down so many times that it is second nature to me. I used to road race motorcycles with the AFM.

63rickert

Bikes are fun. Period. It is not necessary to be a special person or have special abilities to ride a bike and have fun.

If past age 60 you are still riding the edge and thrill seeking you are in a tiny group. Past 70 membership in that group is nil. If your health still allows you to play maybe you should go for it. The aging process is going to catch up. And it is still going to be fun. For myself the edge has been explored. Much has been learned. One thing learned is the bike is safe.

A story about the edge and about massively stable. This would be in a race. I don’t race any longer and don’t do anything like what is described. This is twenty five years ago. Descending at 50mph. A competitor pulls alongside, cocks his arm and unloads a hammer blow to my handlebars. Direct on the brake hood, point of maximum leverage. Guy was completely addled on steroids, may have been loaded on amphetamines too.
The bike veers wildly all over the road.

The follow motorcycle was piloted by an old friend. He has done literally thousands of races. Never saw anything like this. He was convinced he was watching me die. He vomited inside his helmet.

How would anyone train or prepare for such an event? A simple shoulder roll is not going to work. It’s 50mph and a 15% grade, landing point is lower altitude than launch point. It would be like jumping off the roof from the third floor. Where would anyone find a training partner to do drills? Would you trade handlebar bops with me? Plus of course it would be necessary to dream up the scenario. Impossible to dream up what crazy people will do.

I did nothing. I am no acrobat or savant or magician. The one thing I might take credit for is not panicking. Which meant I did nothing. The bike took over. I kept out of the way. I trust my bike. The bike is my friend. The bike knows what to do. It was a long two seconds. Very long. And then we were on our way. Finished the race.

There are lots of stories like that. Yes, a bike has a high center of gravity. At the moment you feel that, as opposed to knowing it theoretically, put the saddle down. If you feel like your tires are narrow strips of rubber, get wider tires.

Two real simple rules for safety.

Ride a bike that works.

Watch where you are going.

OP had a stick in the spokes. That happens. Usually it will cause an incident. And the OP did good. Most crashes never needed to happen.

DrIsotope

"Like literally all I want to do is like ride my bike. And so, the reward just outweighs that risk so much. I could... I could not fall ever again, but I might not go fast ever again, you know?"

billnuke1 

Been there! Done that!

cyccommute 

Never said it takes a special person or special abilities. But being able to crash and minimize injury makes me a better rider who can ride into an older age without being timid.

I don’t agree. I’ve know lots and lots of old geezers who started mountain biking when they were in their 60s. One of them rode a mountain bike ride that tested my (at the time) 30 year old limits with a freshly broken collar bone! On a rigid bike!!!! We got to the bottom of a steep, very long hill and he rolled his shoulders and said “Yea, that kind of hurt. My doc says I shouldn’t be riding but I wanted to go on the ride.”

I knew another mountain biker who was riding hard and crashing into his 90s. I’ve known plenty of old geezers who were hard core riders.

No, a simple shoulder roll isn’t going to do much but neither is sticking out a hand nor going all stiff by “bracing for an impact”. Then again most crashes don’t happen at that speed. At slower speeds (and for that matter higher speeds), knowing what not to do is going to go a long way towards keeping you from getting hurt. As for not panicking, that’s mostly what I am telling people to do. Not panicking.

So do you stop and put the saddle down whenever you brake during an emergency situation? Do emergencies send you engraved invitations so that you know before hand? That’s just bad advice. Moving back and down while braking helps but there is still a limit to how much of a gain in deceleration there is by doing that. The bicycle is still prone to pitch over if you brake hard enough and is even more prone to pitch over if on a hill. It’s physics.

This are trivial and even simplistic “rules”. Bicycling is much more dynamic that that. Stuff happens.

You might want to go back and review curieux88 first post. No sticks involved. His sprained wrist is indicative of putting a hand out to “catch” himself. That’s just a wrong technique. I’ve know lots of people with shattered wrists because they tried to catch themselves.

His crash is also indicative of the inherent instability of bicycles. He swerved around a pothole and lost control. He was “watching where he was going” but that doesn’t appear to be foolproof. I know this from my own experience. I don’t crash because my bike isn’t in working order nor because I’m not looking where I’m going. I’m highly focused on roads and trails but even being highly focused doesn’t mean I can see everything. Surfaces change. Things are hidden behind other things. Sometimes choosing one course of action puts the rider on a path that leads to a crash.

”Watching where you are going” is okay advice but it just doesn’t quite cover everything.

Jaco7

yep pretty much the first time I rode a bike I crashed

billnuke1 

Yup! Been there. Done that. Dad forgot to tighten handlebars...I turned left to avoid the cement bird bath...nothing...straight into the aforementioned cement bird bath...good thing...going abruptly left would have me going down a hill into the street...questionable outcome...