John E

I am in uncharted (for me) territory here, having never owned a British bike other than a Hercules and an Armstrong 3-speed, both of which were converted to hybrid derailleur/IGH transmissions and drop bars. What do you Carlton fans make of this? Full DB Reynolds 531, Campag. hubs & front derailleur, Sugino cranks, Weinmann brakes, Brooks cutaway saddle. Needs spokes and tires and general cleanup, but about the only fault I can find is the hacked-off (presuming it came with one) derailleur hanger. (Someone obviously did not know how to hang a SunTour on a Campag. tab.) I figure it will be a nice upgrade from my UO-8, so I'll probably replace rather than go N+1.

NatusEstInSuht

It might be a Corsa or Criterium or perhaps a Giro D'Italia. It's difficult to ascertain without more detailed photos. It's not often you see a Carlton with chrome stays and lugs.

You might want to ask on the Carlton Cycles of Worksop Facebook group. They'll be able to tell you for sure https://www.facebook.com/groups/1495959500629283/.

bertinjim 

John E -

Look in the belt badge on the down tube, I believe the model name is written across it. Fairly common with that period of Carlton graphics. The Facebook page is very helpful with lots of knowledgeable people.

bertinjim 

It looks like Franco Suisse from my enlargement. Check here: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ml#post8460886 and here: Carlton main about half way down the page. The forged rear Cyclo dropout may have been drewed but many Carltons had forged dropouts without the derailleur tab as that allowed use of fixed gear and Sturmey Archer IGH hubs.

3speedslow

A dropout hanger just got its wings.

John E

Franco Suisse sounds about right. I haven't looked at it in a long time, but I told my sister-in-law I am interested, given the DB 531 and the chrome stays and the fact that she wants to let it go cheaply. I'll have a closer look at the drive side rear dropout and the downtube decals when I get the bike.

Thank you, everyone, for the leads.

John E

Maybe ...
Here is the closest thing I found so far to my sister-in-law's:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...co-suisse.html

bikemig 

This is a cool bike but I'd keep that UO 8 as well. It's a better lock up bike, right? Plus everyone needs at least one hi tensile steel bike boom era bike . ..

Pcampeau

Nice find! It seems to indeed be a Franco Suisse, the decal on the down tube even says Franco-Suisse on it. It looks similar in build to mine but this model often varies greatly in both decal scheme and decal placement. The first catalog model was 1960 and according to the serial number, mine was built in late 1959 for that first year. A couple of differences apart from the decals, mine has pump pegs and I don’t see any on the OPs frame, we also have different cable stop placement. One similarity though is we both are without a derailleur hanger, which I’ve noticed happens from time to time with these and seems to be normal. Campagnolo is the catalog upgrade and I imagine the purchaser could upgrade their dropouts if desired. These frames often came with Haden Birdsmouth lugs like those on the flyer and a few differing fork crowns as well. If those are the original wheels they would likely be Record (no-Record) hubs. Here are some detailed photos of my frame and I hoping to see more detailed pics of the subject bike.

Pcampeau

I should add: serial number is located on the left dropout.

3speedslow

Love that colour!^^^

John E

I'll get some more closeups and a serial number. I also notice a lot of variation in the frame composition from year to year or submodel to submodel. At least they didn't cover the Reynolds decal with a San Diego bike license, as some clown did with one of my Siegers!

John E

What's wrong with blue?

I agree -- I really like the orange, as well.

I have always liked British bicycles, just haven't had one in a long time. I am debating a switch to 700C to accommodate wider tires, but it looks like it might not have 4mm of pad drop available in front, even though it clearly does in back. Interesting ... . On my Nishiki Competition I just ran the pads up the slots for 27" clinchers and down the slots for tubulars -- no problem.

3speedslow

I also like the blue but tend to notice the orange and it’s variations first.

SO TRUE about the license stickers! I have lost more good decals to those then patina probably.

John E

I just brought it home, Christmas present from my sister-in-law. It is a bit shorter in the top tube than the UO-8, which means it fits me almost perfectly -- elbow against the nose of the Brooks Swallow saddle, fingertips just touching the handlebar.

Weird mix of components. I already know about the SunTour V-GT and SunTour 14-34 freewheel, to accommodate the steep hills of Laguna Beach, but the wheelset has Lambert hubs and no-name rims drilled for Schrader. Campag. front derailleur and shift levers are original -- do they perchance have date codes like the SunTour hubs and rear derailleurs often do? Next up: tear it down, clean it up, and decide how to build it.

Serial number is K7911, which makes it a 1962, about what I had guessed
Dropouts are Cyclo, never had a derailleur hanger

juvela

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congratulations on this beautiful new arrival John!

you may find a date mark on the end of the bar

if you wanted to go to 700's you could just go to a longer caliper on the front

keep in mind the change will lower the shell by 4mm

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John E

I am thinking now that the wheelset is original. I pulled off the rotted tires, tubes, and rim strips and found that the rims run perfectly true, and that they are steel. The spokes are shot, and I have an aversion to steel rims, but if this thing is as close to original as I am beginning to suspect, I may want to ride it as-is, at least for awhile. The only nonstandard parts seem to be the seatpost (aluminum with a vertical circle on top with red plastic fittings on both sides, reminding me very much of the one that came on my 1971 Nishiki), the SunTour freewheel and rear derailleur, and the Sugino crankset and KKT Pro Ace road quill pedals, all probably upgrades from OEM.

Does anyone know about Lambert high flange hubs? The only time I heard of Lambert was in the context of the Viscount bikes with sealed bearing hubs, which these arenot, and that is the only reference I can find on ClassicRendezvous.com, but I am not an expert on British components. Did a Lambert marque for components or bicycles predate the Viscount thing by a decade or more?

obrentharris 

Welcome to the Carlton club John! I am a new member myself.
Do the rims have any engraved/stamped markings?
Brent

Pcampeau

Congratulations on getting that beautiful bike home! As for the wheels, Campagnolo was no longer an upgrade but came as catalog standard on the Franco Suisse in 1962 (catalog Schmatalog, I know). I think the wheels may be period correct but I don’t think these were what Carlton would use on what was their top model. Certainly I could be wrong, but unless the customer specifically ordered Lambert hubs with steel rims I would think the original hubs were Campy, though with each customer being different, there’s no way to know definitively.

John E

Thank you. As I look through the available Carlton literature online, all of it points to aluminum rims. The Lambert hubs are still a mystery, at least to me, but they look decent enough, and high flange is definitely appropriate with the ornate lugwork and centerpull brakes. Since the spokes are shot, I need to rebuild the wheels anyway, and I am leaning toward my earlier plan of 700C aluminum rims, preferably 18mm, to accommodate 32 or perhaps 35mm tires. The two big plusses of the steel rims are their 17mm width and dead-on trueness, but they are heavy and would not provide safe braking, even with KoolStop pads.

I tore down the BB last night, and the bearings and races look to be in great shape. I'll probably keep the "fake Campy" Sugino Mighty crankset, since I do have a stash of 144mm rings, and only my UO-8 takes that BCD. I am saving the Stronglight crankset for one of the Capo Siegers.

John E

OK, Phase 1, tear-down and initial cleanup, went smoothly -- no stuck seatposts or stems, no intractable rust damage. What is really weird and unexpected, though, is the asymmetry of the Cyclo rear dropouts -- did a lobster fisherman design these?

daka

Bent?

cudak888 

Bent.

-Kurt

John E

Agreed, but how best to straighten it without damaging the brazing, the stays, or the dropout itself?

Also interesting -- O.L.D. = 126mm, and dropouts are visibly slightly off parallel, so I'll have to set that straight -- so to speak -- as well. The 126 is good news, because I was hoping to build it with a 2x6 or 2x7 transmission.

Frame geometry: 55cm C-T (just my size!), 57cm C-C top (about 1-2cm longer than I prefer)
72 degrees parallel (I think -- need to verify with a protractor)

More notes on components:
brake levers are DiaCompes, so obviously not original
brake calipers are mismatched Weinmanns (Vainqueuer 999 engraved on front, (missing) stick-on label on rear)
After I sort out the rear dropouts and mock it up with 700C wheels, I'll revisit the brake caliper reach issue; Weinmann 750 looks fine for the rear, but 610 is barely long enough for 27" wheels up front; maybe Universal 61s or Mafac racers??
front derailleur is a normal-high SunTour Spirt, consistent with the SunTour VGT rear

juvela

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your question regarding Lambert -

in the pre-Viscount time there were Lambert cycles with fully lugged frames and no sealed bearing components

Lamberts also got badged as Reg Harris and as Viking


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