iconicflux

I've tried to maintain a good relationship with my favorite LBS by buying my bike from them, having my wheels built by them, buying most of my accessories from them, and always checking if they have something in stock (and purchasing the in-stock items from them) even if I know I can get it cheaper online/elsewhere. In the past month alone I've sent 4 people over to their shop to get repairs done. I thought I was a pretty good/valued customer.

This past weekend I broke a spoke on a wheel with only about 500 miles under it. I brought it into the shop and found out that I'm going to have to pay them to put in another spoke, retension all the spokes, and true the wheel. This wouldn't bother me if it weren't for the fact that this wheel is so new and because I've purposefully made an effort to spend money in the shop.

My thinking is that if I'm spending money on their wrench, that's fine, but I'm no longer spending money on anything else that I know I can get cheaper elsewhere. I'll save loads of money in the long run while they'll get my money much less often.

I think what this shop is doing is short sighted. I'd love to hear what other people and especially shop owners think about it.

Drew Eckhardt 

That should be a warranty repair unless you shifted a chain into the spokes or otherwise damaged them. Most likely the shop didn't do a competent job stress relieving and achieving uniform high tension and they should cleanup after themselves. Possibly they chose to sell bad cheap spokes in which case they should cleanup after themselves.

It should still be a warranty repair 20,000 miles from now when you're about to wear out the brake tracks.

1) It's stupid

2) Avoiding problems like this is a good reason to build your own wheels

tagaproject6

Why do you feel obligated to give them your money? They are a business trying to earn money and put food on the table, but it is also up to them to device ways to earn your business. It has to be in the form that appeals to the value of their customer base, be it in the form of service or competitive pricing. This is a precarious balancing act that your LBS constantlyObviously, you feel that they have not done a good job of earning your business...WHAT'S WITH ALL THE GUILT?

I don't ever go to a store (LBS or whatever)thinking that I need to support them even though I do not like their...(put whatever you feel is necessary here)...

I go to the LBS looking for great deals, stuff that I want, parts that I want now and the occassional impulse buy, regardless of price. I do not ever feel guilty for not spending my money in their store.

It is your money and you should spend it the way you see fit. Aren't you trying to put food on the table as well?

iconicflux

Drew,

That's pretty much what I think. They're arguing that the spoke broke by the nipple which probably meant I was riding on a rough road when it broke. It's funny because I was riding the Western Maryland Rail Trail which is about as far from "rough" as you can get.

I generally baby my wheels because I'm a mega-clyde and I can't afford them going out of true on me all the time.

10 Wheels

Should be a warranty repair.
Felt gave me an entire new wheel at 12,500 miles when the hub broke at the spoke connection.

prathmann

The only time I've had spokes break at the nipple end was on a wheel where I deliberately underdished it as an experiment. Starting at about 12,000 miles I experienced a series of spoke failures - all on the NDS at the nipple. The few spoke failures I've had when hitting potholes have been at the spoke head.

If the wheel was built properly to start then it shouldn't require retensioning and a full retruing when a spoke breaks after only 500 miles. Should be just a replacement of the broken spoke and a touch up truing by adjusting the tension on that spoke and maybe the adjacent ones.

CB HI

If the spoke broke at the nipple, that indicates a material problem with the spoke or extremely cheap spokes to me.

Either way, warrenty repair.

iconicflux

the spokes are dt swiss double butted.. those are decent quality, right?

CB HI

Yes those are good spokes.

Steve B.

"They're arguing that the spoke broke by the nipple which probably meant I was riding on a rough road when it broke."

Bull****, plain and simple.

They sold you the wheel and if they suspected some issue where you might be hard on a wheel (heavy rider), they should have suggested a build with 36 spokes, and a Velocity or similar quality Mavic rim. ALL road wheels see some "rough roads" from time to time and using that as an excuse is plain BS and a cop out for a bad build.

On custom builds (as opposed to boutique or factory wheels) a break at the nipple head at the hub sounds like they didn't stress the wheel after build up and since they built the wheels they should be replacing the spoke AND re-tensioning the wheel for free.

500 miles is generally under a years worth of use, and for road wheels, most decent internet wheel builders, Peter White, Colorado, Excel, Rivendell all come to mind, either offer a lifetime warranty (Peter White) or would replace the spoke, re-tension the wheel and send it back free.

Possibly mention this to the shop in a nice way.

SB

Drew Eckhardt 

Or insufficient tension (on the non drive side), or failure to correct spoke lines (especially with a deep rim, large flange, and many crossings).

Still a warranty repair.

iconicflux

Steve B - The wheel is a 36H Velocity Chukkar with DT Swiss double butted spokes on Shimano XT mountain hubs (I have a Surly CrossCheck so I can do that.)

Thanks for the information... I'm going to mention what y'all have said tomorrow.

rogerstg

Or faulty nipples or spokes too short. Still same conclusion as yours though.

Machka 

Spokes break. Shops charge for repair and service.


It should cost you what? About $15 maybe??

iconicflux

Machka - so you wouldn't be irritated about paying the same shop that built the wheel $25 to fix the broken spoke when the wheel has only 500 miles on it?

Drew Eckhardt 

Quality spokes in properly built wheels do not break for the first few hundred thousand miles.

Nermal

Few HUNDRED THOUSAND miles? I doubt even Machka has bikes with that many miles. I suspect a bit of hyperbola here.

iconicflux

I went over to Bike Doctor of Frederick today and not only did they actually charge me for this work which I (and most others) strongly feel should have been warranty work. They added on a $12 for swapping my cassette between wheels even though it was NEVER on any estimate or labor bill provided to me, never discussed prior, and I'd have told them to not swap it. Essentially, I got to the register, there was another $12 charge, I pointed out that it wasn't on the estimate or anything given to me. They said it stays and implied I wouldn't get my bike if I didn't pay it. I paid it under protest.

That's a violation of the Maryland Consumer Protect Act right there.

They also didn't have a rim of mine they were storing for me until they built me a new bike.

I've attached a jpg of the receipts so there's no doubt as to my telling the truth.

Honestly, it's my opinion that no one should shop at Bike Doctor of Frederick.

Steve B.

Spokes should not break with that kind of rim, spokes and hubs, at 500 miles, assuming a correct build. Pretty much anyone who's dealt with broken spokes and wheel building understands the reason for this failure and everything points to a bad build.

And it cost him closer to $40, which is a lot of money for the work as well as something a good shop would cover free.

I don't expect a shop to cover some stuff and understand they have a different bottom line in today's internet era, but he's getting taken and that's unfortunate.

SB

iconicflux

Thanks Steve.

I gave them the option of refunding me earlier today and the owner chose not to...

The question now is, chargeback or small claims? I'm leaning towards small claims as they'd need to bring an attorney to handle it and that would cost them far more than the money they tried to screw out of me.

The thing that really gets me is that this guy KNOWS that my wife is starting cancer treatments, that I have next to no money because of her cancer, and he STILL decided to fsck me over.

This is just getting started...

calamarichris

Why get upset about it? Whenever an LBS screws you out of a few dozen short-term bucks, they're ultimately screwing themselves out of a few thousand long-term bucks.

Get yourself a truing stand & the Jobst Brandt book and take advantage of the Information Age. I built my first set of wheels from scratch last year and it was a horizon-expanding way to learn about such things. Now I almost look forward to breaking a spoke (but you know how that works.) Bad treatment from LBS can be a rewarding and liberating experience if you look at it the right way.

Good luck with your wife. I hope she makes a completely clean recovery.

Nachoman

It's not really worth your time and effort either. Personally, I'd just move on and avoid them in the future.

iconicflux

It's not the money. It's the principle of the thing. If they'd do it to me, they'll do it to someone else that may not know they're getting screwed and it really bothers me to let wrongs go unpunished. I have an "overactive sense of vengeance" as my wife puts it.

Drew Eckhardt 

As of 2006 Jobst Brandt had racked up 300,000 miles on a set of 15/16 gauge spokes, nipples, and hub shells. Rims, bearings, cups, and rear axles had been replaced.

He's the mechanical engineer that determined spokes fail due to fatigue with short life times resulting from high variation in a fatigue cycle or excessive mean stress, with the later coming from parts of the spoke which were never taken past their elastic limit when it was bent such as when the elbow was formed.

No hyperbole.

High quality spokes last pretty much indefinitely in properly built wheels as long as you don't damage them with road debris, an over-shifted chain, etc. Like a properly engineered and manufactured steel frame.

Properly built wheels imply reasonable length spoke elbows (although you can kludge around long ones with spoke washers), no 1.8mm elbows in big hub holes, spoke line correction at hub and rim, uniform high tension, and proper stress relieving.

Profit margins mean most people don't get properly built wheels. Spoke elbows are made extra long to make life easier for the lacing machines, hand labor to correct spoke lines isn't free, lower tension targets allow faster production, stress relieving takes another expensive
Holland Mechanics HT robot or hand labor.

Avoiding the problem is easy - you can do it yourself using a fair amount of patience but not much money or skill (I find wheel building about as hard as setting up a front derailleur) or pay some one reputable $80-$200 in labor for each wheel set.

CB HI

No lawyers in small claims court, just you and the defendant.

And since it was DT spokes, I now agree with the others that it was an extremely bad build. Trying to get the money back is hardly worth your time, but telling everyone you can about the poor treatment will cost them significant money.