Too Fred for the room.
05-03-10, 12:12 PM
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Too Fred for the room.
I am perfectly willing to conceed that I may be dead wrong. But somehow I feel out of place when i read about extensive re-builds and modifications. The pro & cons of fixies, spoke configuration, wheel weights & sizes, and all manner of improvements & changes to be made to bikes. I have several bikes, suited to severaL purposes, but basically I just want to get to point B from point A.
I see someone who is thinking about doing some bike riding, basically just wanting to test the water, and the "big box haters swoop down on him/her with grave warnings about terrible junk bikes, and advice on how to go to Craig's list to pick up that bargain Trek or Cannondale and replace parts and stuff. I once saw a guy on here who just wanted to buy a reasonably good value bike at a big box store for use on a 2 week vacation. He was inundated with advice about how he would come to grief with such a bike and the foolishness of buying ANTHING EVER at a BBS. When I started commuting it was on a loaned Huffy, and while I wasn't impressed with this bike I DID find I like to ride. Later, I got a TriAx Crimson road bike for $70 on clearance at Target. I rode it for a year, putting about 7000 miles on it and put on a set of Gatorskins to replace the inadequate stock tires. I STILL like riding this bike! I upgraded to a Specialized Sirrus for most commutes but don't see any lifechanging difference in my rides. (Actually I had MORE problems with the Specialized than on my TriAx!)
This may seem like a rant, maybe IS a rant, but, for every Trek, Cannondale, or Denaldi (ONCE!!!) I see on the road I see 5 teenagers, clueless adults, and flat-out ****ers riding "whatever" against the flow of traffic with no lights. 90% of the pricey bikes are being ridden by " Lance" and "Lancette" as they do their time trials as the weather improves. Seems to me I'm serious about riding, but not obsessed. I'm willing to spend a few bucks for a better ride, but I'm not impressed with slight improvements that cost a few hundred bucks. Like I say I may be off-base here but I feel mighty "Fredly" when I read most of the posts here. Any body ELSE?
I see someone who is thinking about doing some bike riding, basically just wanting to test the water, and the "big box haters swoop down on him/her with grave warnings about terrible junk bikes, and advice on how to go to Craig's list to pick up that bargain Trek or Cannondale and replace parts and stuff. I once saw a guy on here who just wanted to buy a reasonably good value bike at a big box store for use on a 2 week vacation. He was inundated with advice about how he would come to grief with such a bike and the foolishness of buying ANTHING EVER at a BBS. When I started commuting it was on a loaned Huffy, and while I wasn't impressed with this bike I DID find I like to ride. Later, I got a TriAx Crimson road bike for $70 on clearance at Target. I rode it for a year, putting about 7000 miles on it and put on a set of Gatorskins to replace the inadequate stock tires. I STILL like riding this bike! I upgraded to a Specialized Sirrus for most commutes but don't see any lifechanging difference in my rides. (Actually I had MORE problems with the Specialized than on my TriAx!)
This may seem like a rant, maybe IS a rant, but, for every Trek, Cannondale, or Denaldi (ONCE!!!) I see on the road I see 5 teenagers, clueless adults, and flat-out ****ers riding "whatever" against the flow of traffic with no lights. 90% of the pricey bikes are being ridden by " Lance" and "Lancette" as they do their time trials as the weather improves. Seems to me I'm serious about riding, but not obsessed. I'm willing to spend a few bucks for a better ride, but I'm not impressed with slight improvements that cost a few hundred bucks. Like I say I may be off-base here but I feel mighty "Fredly" when I read most of the posts here. Any body ELSE?
05-03-10, 12:20 PM
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This is just crazy talk, real freds ride from point A to point B.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-03-10, 12:31 PM
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05-03-10, 01:06 PM
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05-03-10, 01:10 PM
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My biggest 'fred' peeve is the cryptic three letter acronyms that are popular here, but nowhere else. The first time I read a post advising people to go to the LBS for something or other, I wondered if it was a typo, and what the Latter Day Saints had to do with bike commuting.
But yeah, there's definitely some...Over-passionateness, I guess? You get used to it, though.
05-03-10, 01:18 PM
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It's an Internet forum. Half the fun is in the debates.
I do agree that coming to this forum could give people the impression that commuting is far more complicated than it really is. It's like riding your bike anyplace else except that you're at work once you get there.
I also think that posters sometimes forget that there are many ways to skin a cat.
As it so happens, my wife and I are in a discussion over getting our son a new bike. His last bike was from craigslist and a very good bike at an excellent price. However, it was a tad too big for him when we got it and I think for awhile it caused him to loose some interest in biking. He also wants to be involved in picking this next one out. With craigslist, you've got to be very patient or very lucky. There's no showroom and no catalog you can order from.
Even if you go to REI you're talking about $200 - $300 for a bike in his size. That's pretty steep for us considering he'll need another one in a few years.
I do agree that coming to this forum could give people the impression that commuting is far more complicated than it really is. It's like riding your bike anyplace else except that you're at work once you get there.
I also think that posters sometimes forget that there are many ways to skin a cat.
As it so happens, my wife and I are in a discussion over getting our son a new bike. His last bike was from craigslist and a very good bike at an excellent price. However, it was a tad too big for him when we got it and I think for awhile it caused him to loose some interest in biking. He also wants to be involved in picking this next one out. With craigslist, you've got to be very patient or very lucky. There's no showroom and no catalog you can order from.
Even if you go to REI you're talking about $200 - $300 for a bike in his size. That's pretty steep for us considering he'll need another one in a few years.
05-03-10, 01:20 PM
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I've been riding just fine for 5 years on a $300 bike. I've looked at better bikes but didn't think they were worth the extra money. My kids had department store bikes when they were growing, only getting even $300 bikes after they were pretty much into their full sized bike. The bikes worked fine. If I had a department store bike that fit me OK, I'd ride it.
I keep seeing the "craigslist" advice too. Around here, it just is a waste of time. I have NEVER seen a decent used bike on CL for a reasonable amount of money; Crap WallyWorld bikes for $80 (yeah right), and if you do see a good bike it's either already sold by the time you call them (20 minutes after it's posted) or they want $1200.
Maybe in some areas of the country, there are great bikes only slightly rusty in thrift stores or CL for $50, but it sure ain't here.
It's worth checking around. The bike shop in the small town where I went to school rebuilt old junkers (really just oiled them, cleaned them and used some for parts to fix the others) during the winter downtime, and sold them to students for $25 to $50 in the fall; they actually had some pretty decent bikes and for the 1 to 4 mile commutes most people there had, they were fine.
I keep seeing the "craigslist" advice too. Around here, it just is a waste of time. I have NEVER seen a decent used bike on CL for a reasonable amount of money; Crap WallyWorld bikes for $80 (yeah right), and if you do see a good bike it's either already sold by the time you call them (20 minutes after it's posted) or they want $1200.
Maybe in some areas of the country, there are great bikes only slightly rusty in thrift stores or CL for $50, but it sure ain't here.
It's worth checking around. The bike shop in the small town where I went to school rebuilt old junkers (really just oiled them, cleaned them and used some for parts to fix the others) during the winter downtime, and sold them to students for $25 to $50 in the fall; they actually had some pretty decent bikes and for the 1 to 4 mile commutes most people there had, they were fine.
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05-03-10, 01:31 PM
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To me the best time to find a bike on craigslist is late fall through February when fewer people are looking. I have gotten some great deals but I pretty much know what I am looking for and am typically in no real hurry to get it.
05-03-10, 01:32 PM
#9
You gonna eat that?
I do my commuting on a 1994 bike (it was virtually unridden when I got it in 2008 for $100). Works fine, more or less. I have done some upgrades and stuff, but mostly when it needs it (i.e., replace a tacoed wheel). I also have some older, vintage bikes. I have one newer bike, a single speed my wife got me for Christmas.
The mechanic at my LBS told me about an article he read in one of the cycling mags. It did a review of several X-mart MTBs. It rated them rather well, actually. What they did was look at some of the more popular bikes among the "ride on the sidewalk to get to my manual labor job" crowd. They found that for bikes that are ridden slowly along a sidewalk, the best value in terms of comfort, function, and even reliability (per dollar spent), the X-mart bikes were fine and would function acceptably for years. They were, in fact, the best value.
The mechanic pointed out, however, that many of those bikes come with parts that are not easily serviced, so when something goes bad it usuallly means you have to throw the whole part out and replace it, rather than doing what would be a simple repair on a comparable (but more expensive) LBS model.
The mechanic at my LBS told me about an article he read in one of the cycling mags. It did a review of several X-mart MTBs. It rated them rather well, actually. What they did was look at some of the more popular bikes among the "ride on the sidewalk to get to my manual labor job" crowd. They found that for bikes that are ridden slowly along a sidewalk, the best value in terms of comfort, function, and even reliability (per dollar spent), the X-mart bikes were fine and would function acceptably for years. They were, in fact, the best value.
The mechanic pointed out, however, that many of those bikes come with parts that are not easily serviced, so when something goes bad it usuallly means you have to throw the whole part out and replace it, rather than doing what would be a simple repair on a comparable (but more expensive) LBS model.
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I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
05-03-10, 01:32 PM
#10
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When I first came to this site I was a bit intimidated by some of the advice I got. Some people think you're just nuts if you don't spend $1500 on a bike. But at the same time I got advice from other members saying "ride what ya got!" Different strokes for different folks.
There never seems to be any shortage of opinions around here. At least on the commuter forum, there seem to be plenty of "Freds" out there. I wouldn't worry about it much.
There never seems to be any shortage of opinions around here. At least on the commuter forum, there seem to be plenty of "Freds" out there. I wouldn't worry about it much.
05-03-10, 01:32 PM
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It's an Internet forum. Half the fun is in the debates.
I do agree that coming to this forum could give people the impression that commuting is far more complicated than it really is. It's like riding your bike anyplace else except that you're at work once you get there.
I also think that posters sometimes forget that there are many ways to skin a cat.
As it so happens, my wife and I are in a discussion over getting our son a new bike. His last bike was from craigslist and a very good bike at an excellent price. However, it was a tad too big for him when we got it and I think for awhile it caused him to loose some interest in biking. He also wants to be involved in picking this next one out. With craigslist, you've got to be very patient or very lucky. There's no showroom and no catalog you can order from.
Even if you go to REI you're talking about $200 - $300 for a bike in his size. That's pretty steep for us considering he'll need another one in a few years.
I do agree that coming to this forum could give people the impression that commuting is far more complicated than it really is. It's like riding your bike anyplace else except that you're at work once you get there.
I also think that posters sometimes forget that there are many ways to skin a cat.
As it so happens, my wife and I are in a discussion over getting our son a new bike. His last bike was from craigslist and a very good bike at an excellent price. However, it was a tad too big for him when we got it and I think for awhile it caused him to loose some interest in biking. He also wants to be involved in picking this next one out. With craigslist, you've got to be very patient or very lucky. There's no showroom and no catalog you can order from.
Even if you go to REI you're talking about $200 - $300 for a bike in his size. That's pretty steep for us considering he'll need another one in a few years.
But f it, unlike our kids, our grand kids are for spoiling.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-03-10, 01:51 PM
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Try not to take it too personally, and join in the excessively neurotic debates-- it can be fun in a dysFUNctional way! there are more Freds out here than Lances.
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Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
05-03-10, 01:56 PM
#15
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Two of my bikes are fix-em-uppers I salvaged from a dumpster. I put about $100 into one of them, $150 into the other to get them to the shape I wanted them in for commuting. To make them just "useable" would have cost about $50 total.
They're still pretty fredly looking beasts, although one is far from being a box-store bike. The other was probably pretty fancy when it was new... 22 years ago. But now it's essentially the same equipment you'd see on a $100 Schwinn at Target.
They're still pretty fredly looking beasts, although one is far from being a box-store bike. The other was probably pretty fancy when it was new... 22 years ago. But now it's essentially the same equipment you'd see on a $100 Schwinn at Target.
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05-03-10, 02:17 PM
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Well, these people presumably wouldn't come to a dedicated bike forum for advice if they didn't want a little education.
It may not be a huge difference to some people. The bikes assembled by Walmart staff may be well-done, but they may not. One is taking one's chances. I'd say their assembly is usually right. If that is good enough for you, by all means, enjoy your cheap bike. Their lubrication is probably also OK. If it is not, you'll lose some effort overcoming more friction. If you're willing to accept that, go for that cheap Walmart bike. If you're OK with inferior components, go ahead & buy the Walmart bike.
But this forum is full of enthusiasts. People who sign up and ask adivce here have GOT to take that into account.
If I buy a name brand bike from the LBS, I know it is assembled right, lubricated right, and has better components than a Walmart bike. I figure this translates into 10% more of my pedaling effort going towards locomotion, instead of going into dry bearings. To me, it is worth it. Bikes are slow enough already, without sapping my energy unnecessarily.
If it isn't worth it to you, and you're too lazy or impatient to search craigslist and ebay for a quality bike, go ahead & buy that Walmart bike. Best of luck to you too.
It is well known that we get what we pay for. As with everything, there are diminishing returns. A $20 garage sale bike may serve as basic transportation just as well as a $1000 bike from the LBS. It costs 5000% more, but is it WORTH 5000% more to the user? The answer is that it depends on the user and how much money he/she has to play with.
Another thing that we're paying for is to keep local businesses and their employees going. In return, they're there for us when we have a question or need advice or service. That is apparently worthless to you as well.
It is a personal decision, and it depends on each person's finances & values.
It may not be a huge difference to some people. The bikes assembled by Walmart staff may be well-done, but they may not. One is taking one's chances. I'd say their assembly is usually right. If that is good enough for you, by all means, enjoy your cheap bike. Their lubrication is probably also OK. If it is not, you'll lose some effort overcoming more friction. If you're willing to accept that, go for that cheap Walmart bike. If you're OK with inferior components, go ahead & buy the Walmart bike.
But this forum is full of enthusiasts. People who sign up and ask adivce here have GOT to take that into account.
If I buy a name brand bike from the LBS, I know it is assembled right, lubricated right, and has better components than a Walmart bike. I figure this translates into 10% more of my pedaling effort going towards locomotion, instead of going into dry bearings. To me, it is worth it. Bikes are slow enough already, without sapping my energy unnecessarily.
If it isn't worth it to you, and you're too lazy or impatient to search craigslist and ebay for a quality bike, go ahead & buy that Walmart bike. Best of luck to you too.
It is well known that we get what we pay for. As with everything, there are diminishing returns. A $20 garage sale bike may serve as basic transportation just as well as a $1000 bike from the LBS. It costs 5000% more, but is it WORTH 5000% more to the user? The answer is that it depends on the user and how much money he/she has to play with.
Another thing that we're paying for is to keep local businesses and their employees going. In return, they're there for us when we have a question or need advice or service. That is apparently worthless to you as well.
It is a personal decision, and it depends on each person's finances & values.
05-03-10, 02:22 PM
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I think there's balance. On the one hand, it is true that buying from Craigslist when you don't know what your looking for is very challenging. But it's also true that buying a cheap bike can lead a person to conclude that cycling is difficult, and therefore not become regular riders. So it's good that people are providing different perspectives.
05-03-10, 03:18 PM
#18
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The biggest issue I have with BSO's is that they can be dangerous. I had a friend that was riding a Huffy and the chainstay pulled out of the rear dropout.
05-03-10, 03:36 PM
#19
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what annoys me here sometimes is the term "entry-level bike". What exactly is this, considering we're talking about commuting. I understand the term if you do cycling as a sport, road racing, TT or mountain biking, but for commuting?
Essentially you can split the commuting forum into two sections, that have different needs. a) the short distance commuter and b) the long distance commuter. For short distance commuter, ride whatever you wish. For long distance commuter there are certain bikes that will work (much) better than others, and the difference is noticeable (at least that's what I hear on this forum). And for the long distance commuter it may really make a difference if you have a 'nice' cyclo-cross bike or a cheap one. I don't know, at 15 miles R/T I consider myself a short distance commuter. And hey, if my bike falls apart in middle of my commuter, I walk the rest...
Essentially you can split the commuting forum into two sections, that have different needs. a) the short distance commuter and b) the long distance commuter. For short distance commuter, ride whatever you wish. For long distance commuter there are certain bikes that will work (much) better than others, and the difference is noticeable (at least that's what I hear on this forum). And for the long distance commuter it may really make a difference if you have a 'nice' cyclo-cross bike or a cheap one. I don't know, at 15 miles R/T I consider myself a short distance commuter. And hey, if my bike falls apart in middle of my commuter, I walk the rest...
05-03-10, 03:53 PM
#20
Location: Canada eh?
Well..I ride an old one speed bike with coaster brakes, chrome fenders and a rear rack that I salvaged from a dumpster. I use it for commuting and other daily transport. All I did was replace a missing handgrip, saddle, install a front hand brake, better front rim and tires. I don't really need much to get me from point B to point A.
That being said I really enjoy reading the threads about upgrades or what people do to their bikes. I agree that there does seem to be a lot of box store bike bashing and promotion of the local bike shop. Personally I think if someone seems serious about committing to long distance commuting I still think the after purchase service you get from your local bike shop is going to be better in the long run. I once bought a perfectly decent $300 Bianchi Hybrid/Mountain bike at a local bike shop simply because I knew that I would get better service there than at a big box store.
Luckily I am also mechanically inclined and I plan on one day hopefully turning an old 26" wheel 10 speed into a SS for commuting. I like to read about those types of conversions on the forum. I think most people here genuinely want to help out.
That being said I really enjoy reading the threads about upgrades or what people do to their bikes. I agree that there does seem to be a lot of box store bike bashing and promotion of the local bike shop. Personally I think if someone seems serious about committing to long distance commuting I still think the after purchase service you get from your local bike shop is going to be better in the long run. I once bought a perfectly decent $300 Bianchi Hybrid/Mountain bike at a local bike shop simply because I knew that I would get better service there than at a big box store.
Luckily I am also mechanically inclined and I plan on one day hopefully turning an old 26" wheel 10 speed into a SS for commuting. I like to read about those types of conversions on the forum. I think most people here genuinely want to help out.
05-03-10, 03:53 PM
#21
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There have also been reports of brand new BSOs where the brake calipers folded (stays snapped off or bent) on the first hard braking going downhill.
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05-03-10, 04:21 PM
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I started with a Schwinn Pathway from Walmart.com. I never had a problem with that bike. Put fenders, a rack, light, everything a fred needs. Took a hell of a hit from a car, replaced the wheel and pedals, went on from there. The Super Sport still has shifting issues, despite many adjustments from the lbs. The Trek, no problems yet.
05-03-10, 04:25 PM
#24
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I'm sorry you didn't sign up with a LBS cartel* <ahem> I meant consortium that was offering some kick backs via PayPal each time one goes in the offense against wally mart bikes and extol the virtue of the said LBS bikes. That was a while back.
It was a great windfall during the GMC Denali thread for some of us!
* I can't divulge the name of the consortium for obvious reasons.
It was a great windfall during the GMC Denali thread for some of us!
* I can't divulge the name of the consortium for obvious reasons.
05-03-10, 04:41 PM
#25
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 6,192
Bikes: Specialized Hardrock
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I came to this group after riding BMW motorcycles for almost 20 years. There are a lot of Freds there, and point A and point B often are in different states (or time zones). I guess I was so intune with "let's just ride" to not worry about much here as long as I got where I was going.