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Form, Function, Looks, Price - what’s your formula?

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Form, Function, Looks, Price - what’s your formula?

Old 03-06-19, 08:44 PM
  #1  
jade408
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Form, Function, Looks, Price - what’s your formula?

So I am spec-ing my replacement bike build, and it is a tough decision to decide when to be generic or upgrade.

On my values list, I’d love to buy sime American made stuff, on the looks front - I nave a soecific aesthetic vision. Of course my actual needs are pretty straightforward, just about anything will be functional for me.

So I am debating on the splurges and saves. So far

Splurge:
frame (custom over stock)
brakes (Paul brakes)
front light (Edelux 2)
crankset (Velo Orange)

Save:
headset (Velo Orange)
stem (Velo Orange)
rear light (B&M rack mount)
dynamo hub (SP)

I may change my saves and splurges as the final tally gets closer - but it is hard to decide.

So how do you rank and prioritize? Do you have a formula. What do you save or splurge on?
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Old 03-07-19, 12:17 PM
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Splurge on the groupset.... Get the highest tier you can afford in whichever manufacturer you lean toward. SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo or other. I prefer to have all the components to be from one mfr.

Splurge on aesthetics.... color, lines of the frame, anything that draws you to a bike.

Save on anything else... I don't think any particular brand really and truly outshines another.

Regardless of the above, get a bike that fits you and is for the type of cycling you wish to do.
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Old 03-07-19, 12:20 PM
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It's like obscenity; I know it when I see it, even if only in my head initially.

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Old 03-07-19, 12:49 PM
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A good deal..

I bought my last couple bikes were bikes , bought used, ... more utility - touring .. unlike above who goes for race bikes..

Or this one : someone else's Bespoke build they refused to accept when finished.. so I got for less.. then changed a few component parts ...






,,,

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Old 03-07-19, 12:53 PM
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I don't have a formula as each build is it's own thing. There are only 2 things that are consistent and they are #1 value and #2 aesthetics.

EDIT: Percieved value, actually. What I would consider to be a value.

Last edited by Doctor Morbius; 03-07-19 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 01:50 PM
  #6  
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Great topic as it applies to me at this time as I am prepping lugs and tubes right now for a touring frame. The component mix follows the classic durability over modern convenience train of thought.
Derailleurs are mid 90's 8 speed XT,
Crank is Suntour XC Pro with 26/36/42 rings,
Brakes are Suntour XC Pro with Superbe brake levers (incredible combination).
Shifting is handled by Suntour Barcons, and hubs are Suntour Sealed Bearing from the mid 80's converted to 135mm OLD.

Having matching components are not important as function over form rules. With modern components this is not so easily done.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:27 PM
  #7  
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I'd say function first, because I cannot see the bike while I ride it. if I cannot enjoy riding it, it is expensive art, not a bike. If it is ugly and rides well, I am happy. If it doesn't work on the road, it is garbage ... though possibly pretty garbage.

Aesthetics can be important, though, if you are putting together your own bike, because the bike can be an expression of your self.

I agree with @Iride01 that the group set is primary. Get the best you can afford, because you will have it for a long time and you will be using it every minute you are on the bike (that said, on one bike I opted for 105 when i could have bought Ultegra because I didn't think Ultegra was a big enough upgrade in function for the increase in price.)

After that, pick a frame you find Both functional and appealing. There are so many options, this shouldn't be hard. If you an afford a custom frame, and one can be built that meets your needs and will for a very long time to come, why not? I cannot go custom because my health and riding style/quantity change so often. A "perfect" frame for how I feel today might be useless in a year---too extreme or not extreme enough. But if you Know how you will be riding in ten years (like, say, @indyfabz) get a frame built to your body and needs.

Third, paint it however you like.

As for price---I look at bikes as investments. I plan to ride my bikes forever. When I amortize the costs over a couple decades (should I be so lucky) the few extra dollars aren't so important. I paid for paint on one of my Workswells---had it painted to my design. Nothing fancy, but i think it looks classy. I love the bike. The cost, averaged over the life of the bike, will probably fractions of a penny a week or something. The joy comes every time I look at it.

My other Workswell I painted myself---and it looks it. But ... I spent dozens of hours on it. Had I paid to get it painted it might have cost more for the paint than for the frame. I substituted time for money. I lost a little quality---but I did a good enough job that I am not embarrassed by it and I still enjoy looking at it. if I were a lot wealthier I might have spent another grand on the bike and got pro paint and Ultegra ... but Function comes first, and the bike functions really well.

Value comes down to the intersection of cost, budget, and dreams. In this equation, I try to stay in the upper third with each. I want at least two-thirds of my dreams, I am willing to spend a third over budget, but if the cost (of say, a group set or a paint job) goes more than a third over budget, I no longer see it as good value (All numbers, percentages, ratios, and statistics wholly invented.)

I guess my process boils down to thinking about the bike as a "durable good," something I plan to have for the rest of my life or at least a good part of it. Therefore a little extra expenditure is worth it. It Has to work really well, because it is essentially a tool. but it also should look pretty good, because it is also one of my crown jewels. It has to be affordable in that if i cannot buy it it isn't mine .... but as an investment, more upfront cost pays off over the life of the bike.

Last edited by Maelochs; 03-07-19 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:47 PM
  #8  
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Some combo of price and function. The only way form and looks comes into it is if something is so hideous it is automatically vetoed. I've never yet chosen to spend extra on anything because it looked better than something else.
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Old 03-07-19, 03:41 PM
  #9  
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HEY everybody... She is NOT using stupid DeFaileurs!!!!!! SA Groupo if anything.
The build starts with the handlebars and then stem choice, threaded or not. Then the frame and wheelbase, I like 44".
Then the back hub and dropout design. What wheel size, tire size and rim>> NO ugly useless EYELETS.
Black rims are nice but black spokes are ugly IMO Shiny spokes are good for being seen better at night also. Even better if the light is on the fork and twinkles thru the spokes, mine is like this.
You can't beat the look and simplicity of a SA FDD dyno drum brake front hub, or disc is OK. Both need a heavy fork.

SA has beautiful full 4 finger levers with a nice plastic inlay for grip. They were VERY comfortable on my tour. NOTHING is better. Only 2 fingers may be necessary with some brakes, but still they are goofball with ergonomics.
My fingers are hovering on the levers A LOT.
Paul levers are ugly IMO. I don't like much from VO either.
If you happen to get 1 1/8" threaded, a DIY stem is the only way to go. 1" is fine for the city. Mine is a NOS Shimano with 1/4" loose balls, after 2 other sealed cartridge ones flubbed rather badly, on my heavyweight.
BB height about 275 is best. Pedal about 4" high, center. Mine is 285 with 180 cranks.
PS: The proper stem length for your bike is 80 mm, NOT twitchy 100.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 03-08-19 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 03:47 PM
  #10  
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Aesthetics if you collect and hoard a lot of them.. there's a few on C&V collecting to collect..
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Old 03-07-19, 04:36 PM
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The money goes into the frame first, then the wheels, after that drive train. Saddles are very user specific and you need to spend whatever it takes to find comfort there.
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Old 03-07-19, 07:00 PM
  #12  
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Function and simplicity and something that doesn't stand out too much ... If used for commuting and daily errands, then avoid fancy expensive groupsets and anything custom made.
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Old 03-07-19, 08:37 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by jade408
So I am spec-ing my replacement bike build, and it is a tough decision to decide when to be generic or upgrade.

On my values list, I’d love to buy sime American made stuff, on the looks front - I nave a soecific aesthetic vision. Of course my actual needs are pretty straightforward, just about anything will be functional for me.

So I am debating on the splurges and saves. So far

Splurge:
frame (custom over stock)
brakes (Paul brakes)
front light (Edelux 2)
crankset (Velo Orange)

Save:
headset (Velo Orange)
stem (Velo Orange)
rear light (B&M rack mount)
dynamo hub (SP)

I may change my saves and splurges as the final tally gets closer - but it is hard to decide.

So how do you rank and prioritize? Do you have a formula. What do you save or splurge on?
I save on stuff that I don't find value in buying the more expensive option.

- a stem doesnt need to cost more than $25, because that's the most a black uno7 stem costs which is very light and well finished.
- wheels dont need to cost more than $450 because I dont find value above that pricepoint thru experience.
- I like quality tires and find value in one's that are well made and perform well, even if they arent the cheapest around.

the VO components you mention are fine...i think they are expensive for the value, but not too far off. I'm guessing you want silver and if so, then they are good value for sure.

I do splurge on personalized threadless stem caps and bar tape plugs.
both are entirely vanity based.
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Old 03-07-19, 10:57 PM
  #14  
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I splurge for components/features that offer genuine perceptible benefit or meet a specific aesthetic. I’m not a weight weeny so spending more to save a few grams is a non-starter. I perceive no performance benefit above Tiagra or 105, so I don’t pay for it. I see no reason to spend a ton of money on stems or cassettes or tubes or basically anywhere where a claim of benefit is entirely imperceptible to me.

The presence or absence of a logo can sometimes be the deciding factor. I prefer no logos. To me, few things detract from a build than a bunch of ugly logos. I understand how a mfg might want to put their brand on their products, but too many go overboard. I’m not interested in paying $100+ for a basic black Easton or Thomson stem with their perma-logos when for $24.99 I can buy a RaceFace and rub the logo off with acetone on a rag. Performance wise, I detect no difference.

These days, silver finish is a little more difficult to source. I usually find what I need from Dimension, Handsome, Nitto or VO. Handsome has a silver crankset, but aesthetically I might pay more for the VO (depending on the build).


-Kedosto
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Old 03-07-19, 11:18 PM
  #15  
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None of the above. The last time I bought a bike was 35 years ago. I still ride it weekly. Never think about it. I just get on it and ride
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Old 03-07-19, 11:53 PM
  #16  
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For me: its about fit and purpose. I had specific goals for every bike I've bought/set up since my first two (My Mooney had the toughest criteria; to be ridable 12 months of the year in the lower 48 stated, It had to be able to ride in fast group rides, do epic day rides without support, tour, go off road, even ride fix gear. It's now done all of those.)

I"m an unusual fit. Short torso with arms and legs that go on forever. The vast majority of bikes are not better that "B" fits for me, regardless of price. So I have 3 customs. I see you are thinking about custom. It's a big jump in price and wait for little gain unless like me (or the total opposite of me) a custom will mean the dream fit or you have specific goals for the bike that aren't offered in stock bikes. My last custom was built around being a first class road fix gear, like a 1980s race bike in a fictional world where road races still happened on fix gears and riders still stopped and turned their wheels around to go up the Alps. It has a dropout I had never seen that is "L" shaped. Wheel comes out forward then down like a vertical dropout. (I've seen a far shorter version since and heard about one in the '30s or '40s.) I specified every detail to the builder. (He checked my math on the fork rake and yes I was a little off but not as far as he wanted.) So I got a rare animal that is completely
"my bike". And rides just like I wanted. Does everything I dreamed of in the conception stages. (Actual better, there was a real learning curve.)

I bought a lot of good used parts for these bikes. New drivetrain. New stems (almost all) and new seatposts because for most bikes I need really long, even on bikes that fit. And I have custom posts so I can run the rear wheel far forward. This was a feature of my (stock) racer 40 years ago, Every bike I have had since with a more laid back seattube or longer chainstays has paid in mountain descent handling - often to the point of being scary. Brakes are decent used no-name Shimanos. Look good, great stoppers and cheap. Is there better? The good bike now wears a mid-range Campy Mirage, picked up used n good condition for maybe $50. Best shifting dereailleur I've ever used. Front is a new Dura-Acs that cost twice as much but works as well. (Bike was on the road, a ride was coming up and front shifting was subpar.)

Ben
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Old 03-08-19, 01:08 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by jade408
So I am spec-ing my replacement bike build, and it is a tough decision to decide when to be generic or upgrade. [And just for once, i will no tbe the egotistical wind-bag I usually am and will actually try to help.

[b]Splurge:
frame (custom over stock)
Only if, like @79pmooney in post #16 , you know Exactly what dimensions you need. I have what is called in the sport a "79pmooney" body---basically a basketball on stilts with squid tentacles. Stock frames never ti without a lot of fiddling. But i would never go custom because unlike the gentleman mentioned i do Not know the prefect dimensions. No sense going custom unless you are going to get a vastly better fit than a stock frame could give.
Originally Posted by jade408
brakes (Paul brakes)
if they look that good to you, and it matters that much .... indulge yourself.
Originally Posted by jade408
front light (Edelux 2)
see above. The headlight is immediately visible and affects the visual character of the bike.
Originally Posted by jade408
crankset (Velo Orange)
see above---but remember, the crankset is essential---function Definitely trumps appearance here. if the VO crankset will do the job as well as any other, get it. if the bike is just a jewel but not a useful tool it is not a bike, it is awkward artwork.

Originally Posted by jade408
Save:
headset (Velo Orange)
Go with the cheapest reasonably sound headset. I have an old quill-stem Raleigh with a $10 headset and it works flawlessly---the $10 headset (from a name-brand maker nonetheless---cheap because of low demand for threaded headsets) is probably better than the one the bike came with---and that one went 30 years before it got notchy.
Originally Posted by jade408
stem (Velo Orange)
@mstateglfr makes a great point. the Kalloi Uno is as light and as strong as any stem out there and sells for under $30.

However .... if you need a certain look .... are you using a threaded or threadless headset? To me the stem is pure function ... but it is one of the immediately visible parts of the bike. I would spend $5 more to get black or silver if that fit the look of the bike.
Originally Posted by jade408
rear light (B&M rack mount)
I like the Cygolite Hot Shot (about $35 for 150 lumens) but any tail light which will get you seen will work.
Originally Posted by jade408
dynamo hub (SP)
I know zero about dynamo hubs, but here, I would go for pure function. The thing has to work and work perfectly all the time. i would absolutely buy the cheapest hub which offered Excellent reliability and function. You don't want to be way out on some unlighted road on a moonless night when the dynamo fails---nor do you want to be negotiating downtown traffic when the dynamo hub shifts to "rider invisibility" mode.

Otherwise @79pmooney, @Kedosto, and @mstateglfr say everything which needs to be said.

Post pics when done please.

Last edited by Maelochs; 03-08-19 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 03-08-19, 01:30 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
For me: its about fit and purpose. I had specific goals for every bike I've bought/set up since my first two (My Mooney had the toughest criteria; to be ridable 12 months of the year in the lower 48 stated, It had to be able to ride in fast group rides, do epic day rides without support, tour, go off road, even ride fix gear. It's now done all of those.)

I"m an unusual fit. Short torso with arms and legs that go on forever. The vast majority of bikes are not better that "B" fits for me, regardless of price. So I have 3 customs. I see you are thinking about custom. It's a big jump in price and wait for little gain unless like me (or the total opposite of me) a custom will mean the dream fit or you have specific goals for the bike that aren't offered in stock bikes. My last custom was built around being a first class road fix gear, like a 1980s race bike in a fictional world where road races still happened on fix gears and riders still stopped and turned their wheels around to go up the Alps. It has a dropout I had never seen that is "L" shaped. Wheel comes out forward then down like a vertical dropout. (I've seen a far shorter version since and heard about one in the '30s or '40s.) I specified every detail to the builder. (He checked my math on the fork rake and yes I was a little off but not as far as he wanted.) So I got a rare animal that is completely
"my bike". And rides just like I wanted. Does everything I dreamed of in the conception stages. (Actual better, there was a real learning curve.)

I bought a lot of good used parts for these bikes. New drivetrain. New stems (almost all) and new seatposts because for most bikes I need really long, even on bikes that fit. And I have custom posts so I can run the rear wheel far forward. This was a feature of my (stock) racer 40 years ago, Every bike I have had since with a more laid back seattube or longer chainstays has paid in mountain descent handling - often to the point of being scary. Brakes are decent used no-name Shimanos. Look good, great stoppers and cheap. Is there better? The good bike now wears a mid-range Campy Mirage, picked up used n good condition for maybe $50. Best shifting dereailleur I've ever used. Front is a new Dura-Acs that cost twice as much but works as well. (Bike was on the road, a ride was coming up and front shifting was subpar.)

Ben
One of the reasons I am looking more at custom is fit issues. I have shart torso/long legs. I keep falling between some stock sizes. And the stock frame options are minimal. Custom gives me fit and features.

Also I can describe what I want the ride to be like, but can’t translate into measurements. But my description is pretty specific.

Last edited by jade408; 03-08-19 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 03-08-19, 05:17 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by jade408


One of the reasons I am looking more at custom is fit issues. I have shart torso/long legs. I keep falling between some stock sizes. And the stock frame options are minimal. Custom gives me fit and features.

Also I can describe what I want the ride to be like, but can’t translate into measurements. But my description is pretty specific.
I have faced the same problems deciding on what to make or buy. The only difference is I don’t have the same fit issues. But I have a vanity problem. Because I have always been involved in side businesses selling resale is a top concern for me. Outfitting the bike practically means making it less desirable from a resale point of view. Dura Ace and Record/Super Record will always maintain their value more than the lower groups. But they wont give you anymore real world practicality over say a 105 group.
Sorry about muddling things up with yet another variable. My father always said you can’t put a renumeration on your hobby. Buy what makes you happy. In the end that’s all that counts. Good luck!
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Old 03-08-19, 08:00 AM
  #20  
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Value and durability. I know people who only buy things if they match their "kit".
Myself, my bikes and I look like Jackson Pollard paintings out there on the road.
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Old 03-08-19, 12:28 PM
  #21  
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Once I splurged on lighting and then discovered modern battery operated lighting. Battery operated lights are so good and inexpensive now that it makes no sense to dump a ton of money into an integrated lighting system. Sure, Dynamo hubs are nice and convenient, however I can do better with battery powered lighting for less cost. When touring they double as a flashlight.
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Old 03-08-19, 12:38 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero
Once I splurged on lighting and then discovered modern battery operated lighting. Battery operated lights are so good and inexpensive now that it makes no sense to dump a ton of money into an integrated lighting system. Sure, Dynamo hubs are nice and convenient, however I can do better with battery powered lighting for less cost. When touring they double as a flashlight.
I can't go back to battery lights. Because for me the convenience and worry-free nature of dynamo lights means I don't have to think about if I charged my lights before I leave home. Or find room in my bag for my lights because someone might steal them when I park my bike. I have enough gadgets to charge day to day to add another one to the list. Battery lights work fine but they add overhead I don't need.
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Old 03-08-19, 02:55 PM
  #23  
ironwood
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Dynamo lights are great, I have a Kasai dynamo, maybe I should have splurged for a SON, but so far so good.

Brazed on centerpulls are also great, I have the Grand Bois long reach Chouette model which is inspired by the MAFAC Raid. Unfortunately you can't mount them on Paul posts, nor can you mount Paul CPs on posts designed for Grand Bois, MAFAC or Compass posts. But Paul is made in the USA

Last edited by ironwood; 03-08-19 at 02:57 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-08-19, 05:08 PM
  #24  
jade408
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Originally Posted by ironwood
Dynamo lights are great, I have a Kasai dynamo, maybe I should have splurged for a SON, but so far so good.
et hit on
Brazed on centerpulls are also great, I have the Grand Bois long reach Chouette model which is inspired by the MAFAC Raid. Unfortunately you can't mount them on Paul posts, nor can you mount Paul CPs on posts designed for Grand Bois, MAFAC or Compass posts. But Paul is made in the USA
I had a Shutter Precision on my old bike. Worked great. See no need to upgrade. The only light issue I had was one my fender mounted one got hit on a group ride dislodging the wire.
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Old 03-08-19, 05:58 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
....

Go with the cheapest reasonably sound headset. I have an old quill-stem Raleigh with a $10 headset and it works flawlessly---the $10 headset (from a name-brand maker nonetheless---cheap because of low demand for threaded headsets) is probably better than the one the bike came with---and that one went 30 years before it got notchy.

...
Very good headsets are the Tanges if you go threaded. $10-30. I get ~8000 miles out of them, then they start getting "notchy". I then go one ball size larger and it's another 1-2,000 miles. For price paid, setup that is a joy and very little attention, why not? (And decent vintage look with real high quality chrome. They take to wrenches with scarring.)

Ben
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