TiHabanero

After mitering all the tubes for a touring frame, my mind got to playing with numbers and am now considering changing the design from 700c to 26". Having only built 700c bikes, I figure this may present a new challenge in design and thinking.

So, before I jump ship and go 26, any of you out there see any reason I should not move forward with the change to a 26" wheel design touring rig?

stardognine

If that's the only difference, is wheel size, I'd say go 26". Assuming you'll leave plenty of tire clearance for either, there seems to be much better choices available, in 26". But hurry, 700c tires are catching up quick, now that they call them 29ers. 🤔😉😁

djb

I guess I should ask, what are your reasons of wanting to go 26?
I'm sold on both, and know the reasons I like 26, but I am curious as to why you think so.

ps, I see building your own bike as being uber neat. Congrats on doing this sort of thing.

TiHabanero

Djb, I have built 4 frames and repaired several more, and they have all been 700c bikes. Figured a 26" wheeled bike will present new design challenges, but perhaps not since I have yet to draw it out.

Second reason is that I have a Miyata 1000 and a Fuji America Touring Series V. Both tour just fine, albeit different from each other. Thinking of something different to add to the stable. I don't see any advantage or disadvantage to either wheel size, but someone out there may be able to point something out that may make the change in plans justifiable.

djb

Ive toured on both, and as an owner of a Troll, I have to say that this type of frame, 26er, can take fat tires, fun handling bike in either mtb bar guise or dropbar, heck I even had it for a while with trekking bars on it, but prefer drops.

The Usual Suspects of pro 26:
-slightly stronger wheels (maybe)
-lower gearing (which I liked because of my Latin America trips)
-maybe easier to find tires, spokes in Littletown, Guatemala (is this a real factor, not really, but maybe)
-no toe overlap, even with fenders, a really nice thing about my troll, even with largish fenders

and frankly, for the whole "speed" thing, I dont really notice a difference, but hard to compare given the diff type of touring Ive done with 700 vs 26 and all the various factors. In the end, I dont ride fast, so it dont make a squat of difference for this dude.

If I were you, it would appeal to me to have a very diff sort of bike to your other ones, basically teh reason I bought a Troll. I like that if I decided to do the Great Divide trail, or bike in Ubekistan or whatever the heck, with a change of bars, change to fatter tires, and maybe less panniers, I would be able to ride my bike pretty much anywhere, with tires up to 3in in front and 2.8 or so in the rear. Very diff than my traditional road touring bikes, and this is exactly the appeal.

but hey, its your time and your circus to plan, just my opinion.

again, pretty cool on making frames.
So, when you say youve made 4 and repaired many more, are the 'many more" your own frames falling apart? ;-)

have fun with it no matter what you do.

tyrion

27.5 is the new 26.

djb

27.5 is the new 650b also.

And thus it ever was.

DropBarFan

559mm/26" wheels are easier to pack into an S&S case though AFAIK the couplers aren't sold to DIY builders. Anyway, with having other 622mm/700C bikes it might be fun to try something different. I'm no expert on frame geometry but as djb suggests, 559mm/26" might make it easier to design for fat tires if that's something you're considering. BTW have you thought about including IGH/belt-drive compatibility?

Tourist in MSN

I have never built a frame and never will. But I can say that when I am doing some complicated mechanical project, if I suddenly decide to make major changes half way through, that is when I start to make stupid mistakes.

I have both 700c bikes and 26 inch wheeled bikes. Like both. If you finish your 700c project, you can always take what you learned from that project and apply it to your next project, a 26 inch bike.

Since most 26 inch bikes have longer head tubes than 700c, would the one you already cut work?

fietsbob

Chainstay choice ? you would want more space for that wider tire..
Touring paved/gravel roads, a less high BB will be a benefit, I'd think..

Likewise , a wider fork crown , again .. to accomodate a 2" tire and mudguards ..



...

TiHabanero

Djb, as a matter of fact the last frame repaired was indeed the first frame I built! A few years ago I hit it with the car in the garage and had to replace the rear triangle. Sat in the basement for years and I just fixed it this winter. Rides perfectly. Other than that it has been drop outs, one on a Miyata Team frame. The chrome threw me for a loop, but I got past it.

djb

I hope you know I was just kidding.
Makes me think though of years and years ago, a friend of ours went to borrow our car, started it in first and went forward into our kid trailer, slightly bending it (no kid in it of course) but it couldnt have been that bad, as it didnt affect it being pulled by me at all, still tracked straight, and went on to have a long happy kid carrying life with no issues.

J.Higgins 

For me the difference between 26" and 700c is a wash. My Troll, which is sporting 2" tires, is fun and comfy. My Diverge, which has 700x35's on it, rolls fast and easy, albeit slightly rougher. All things considered, the perfect medium would be a Disc Trucker running wide tires. The groovy thing about 26" is the lower gear-inches that you can achieve.

saddlesores

how do your 700c frames handle with 26" wheels?

djb

doesnt that screw things up geometry wise, and lower the bb too much etc?
You hear of folks putting 700x28 or whatever on 26 bikes like my Troll, but the actual outer diameter of the 700 wheelset is very close to something like a 26 x 50 or thereabouts ish, or from what I recall reading.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me a bit higher isn't a big deal, but a certain amount lower can be??

would have to hear from knowledgeable folks on this one I think

saddlesores

dunno....friend here decided to build up a 26" frame with 700c wheels, he thought it would go faster. required narrower tires, which he was fine with. also had to get a sidemount derailler as the standard clamp-on rubbed on the tire. he was satisfied with the results.
not sure what affect that would have on bb height. go from 26*2.00 to 700*23....could be close to a wash. in that case, you have a bike that can run 26 or 700/29.

djb

I've always found it so hard to really compared apples to apples with 26 vs 700 for "speed", mostly because my two 26 bikes are so different than my other 700 bikes, and the closest ones, the dropbar 26 inch troll vs dropbar 700 tricross, the tricross is a good number of pounds lighter (about 5 I think) , and the cranksets and cassettes are diff, 50/39/30 12-27 vs 44/32/22 11-34 (both 9 speed) so the shifting and specifically, the tricross with the 12-27 has nice close jumps between gears, AND the 28 slicks feel so diff from the 50mm slicks that this is also another "hard to compare physically" factor.....

there must be a slight difference riding unloaded, but for touring with panniers and at real world touring speeds, I'm not convinced, and like I said, I'm convinced of the few advantages of 26 that are worth it to me, even if there is a small small speed difference--but frankly, the average speeds that I have always had riding loaded over the last 30 years are so average and not particularly fast, I honestly cant see how the diff could be anything but super small....

Trevtassie

I'd be looking at something similar to a Troll, but with longer rear stays so there's more room for panniers with the CG in front of the axle, that's the only thing I find wrong with it, the rear panniers have to be set way back to prevent heel strike.. And lots of room for fatter tyres. I'm thinking of something like the Schwalbe Moto-X. I like the Surly Extraterrestrials, but they aren't super hard wearing, they need a harder compound and/or a slightly more continuous center tread.

djb

I look at it from the view that bike companies have played around with frame design a lot, and come to a given conclusion for a given frame to aim it at a given type of market.
re chainstay length etc, the LHT is known for having longer stays, so great for pannier setback and all that. The Troll clearly has shorter stays, but then the riding characteristics of the Troll is so diff, it was conceived as an off road ish bike, so "flickability" is a priority, and I love this about it, and actually a big reason I didnt just get a LHT.
I only wear size 9 shoes tops, so heelstrike hasnt been an issue, but I could see how it could be with larger shoes, and I am careful of how I load the bike, heavy stuff low, and reasonable weight in rear, heavier front panniers than Ive done in the past, that sort of thing.
BUT I love how my troll is so flickable, even heavily loaded, which to me is priority, to be able to get around potholes on downhills at 50-60kph really nicely and quickly--which is probably part 26in wheels, part geometry

I guess what Im saying is that to "reinvent the wheel" in terms of bike design, thats great, but bike companies have been doing this for a long time, and the Troll frame design is what it is for specific reasons, and it works, but if you dont want a faster steering bike, the LHT is designed for that.

I just find it pretty cool that my Troll is stable and responsive at 5kph or 80kph, not slow steering, not twitchy either, loaded or unloaded, and I could go the up to nearly 3in wide tire route if I want to, and put mtb bars on it or whatever, and the steering characteristics are still really really good.
Ive ridden it with 2.5 mtb knobbies and mtb bars, and its a fun mtb feeling, fun to flick around bike.

I personally cant stand a slow steering bike, so the Troll works fantastically for me, but then I dont have size 11 or 12 shoes, but then maybe with careful packing this wouldnt be a problem anyway....

details details details huh?

Tourist in MSN

Speed wise, I can't really tell any difference between a 26 inch wheel (559mm) bike and 700c bike if all other things are equal. My 700c bikes are lighter than my 26 inch wheel bikes, so in hill country the 700c becomes an advantage. But on the flat, weight has little importance. My 26 inch wheel bikes are built for moderate to heavy loaded touring, thus those bikes are heavier.

And when my 26 inch bikes all have robust tires designed for touring or for off road use, those tires are clearly going to be slower than the lighter weight 700c tires that are more supple. But again, that is specific to my collection of bikes.

All of my 700c bikes with fenders have toe overlap, none of my 26 inch wheel bikes with fenders have toe overlap.

I have no plans to go to S America or any other remote part of the world where only 26 inch tires can be found, so if such places still exist, it does not matter to me. Some say that a 26 inch wheel is stronger, but I think they are close enough to each other that as a criteria it is of minimal importance. My 700c wheels have all been strong enough, I have not busted a spoke in over a decade and the last time I broke a spoke it was on a wheel that was built up in 1961 or 62 on a racing bike of that vintage.

For the few of us that put a bike in an S&S case, the 26 inch wheels certainly fit in a 26 inch case better than a 28 or 29 inch wheel. But this specific criteria is only applicable to a small population that have coupled bikes.

Perhaps the biggest difference between 700c and 26 inch wheels is the poor choice of skinny tires in 26 inch. The choice of tires is much better at and above 40mm in width for a 26 inch tire.

djb

double post....

robow

Though likely in my head, I always felt the larger 700's seemed to roll better for me than the 26's.

djb

you know, despite what I wrote earlier, for unloaded riding, there probably is a difference-but just how much?
It would be neat to be able to have similar bikes, one 700 and other 26, and get some real comparable data on this.

people must have done these tests eons ago.

Tourist in MSN

My 700c bikes range in tire width from 28 up to 37mm. My 26 inch tire bikes range in tire width from 40 up to 57mm. That makes a good comparison pretty difficult.

My 37mm wide 700c (Hutchinson Globetrotter, now discontinued model) tires feel about the same as my 40mm wide 26 inch tires (Schwalbe Marathon with Greenguard).

robow

Now I realize that touring is not mountain biking, but the trend has been towards larger wheels and away from the 26's the last several years. You get a theoretically smoother ride but less agility. Stole the statement below which refers to a study when they were debating the various tire sizes for mountain biking and cross country riding.

"According to research by the University of Central Lancashire, over an XC course 29-inch wheels are fastest. So, if cross-country racing is your thing, 29ers are hard to beat. They also make comfortable, smooth-rolling bikes for less technical riding."

Also, wasn't it at one time on Surly's website that the owners made reference to the fact that they better liked the LHT in 700c because of its ride characteristics?
Bottom line, ride what you like as there are pros and cons of each wheel size and only you can determine which characteristics are most important to you.