Green touring
05-10-13, 10:26 AM
#26
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
05-10-13, 04:03 PM
#28
Senior Member
Well the smart arses can have their fun about tossing apple cores in the woods, and say the fruit was locally sourced. That last bit is actually even worse. I work in the industry. The scourge for fruit production are the various fungal infections that are blown into orchards from rampant wild trees that grow from the seeds of apple cores tossed by thoughtless or unaware individuals.
People whine about the amount of fungicides sprayed on trees, but if they disposed of their crap with a little more forethought, may, just maybe, the fruit they buy would have to be treated less.
Cyccommute also infers something else. Trees spread roots and they sucker, so before long, a place of indigenous vegetation can be overrun by straggly, unsightly apple tree suckers. And because the trees are not appropriately tended, the fruit they bear is rubbish and so full of blight that not even the most committed vegetarian would touch it.
Just think before you toss anything. Trash bins are located in towns so that the rubbish can be removed to a facility that is meant to handle it. Use them!
People whine about the amount of fungicides sprayed on trees, but if they disposed of their crap with a little more forethought, may, just maybe, the fruit they buy would have to be treated less.
Cyccommute also infers something else. Trees spread roots and they sucker, so before long, a place of indigenous vegetation can be overrun by straggly, unsightly apple tree suckers. And because the trees are not appropriately tended, the fruit they bear is rubbish and so full of blight that not even the most committed vegetarian would touch it.
Just think before you toss anything. Trash bins are located in towns so that the rubbish can be removed to a facility that is meant to handle it. Use them!
05-10-13, 04:09 PM
#29
Senior Member
Don't you think that would be difficult if only eating locally grown fruits, veggies and animals. Eating raw meat can be dangerous and not cooking some veggies won't allow for absorption of nutrients and even if you could continually find locally grown fruits which I don't think you could, that would have to get old. You're burning a lot of calories riding all day, tough to replace and so I'm betting a closer inspection of his panniers would reveal a bunch of Ho-Ho's and Twinkies. Ha
And I should be so unlucky as to have invasive apple trees growing in my woods.
And I should be so unlucky as to have invasive apple trees growing in my woods.
05-10-13, 04:18 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,872
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Liked 283 Times
in
194 Posts
Of course, no cook camping and touring can be achieved but not easily done when keeping with his other requirements. I'm not disputing no cook touring, I've done that many times, living off cafe and convenience store/gas station food, including said Twinkies and Ho-Ho's.
05-10-13, 04:52 PM
#31
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: West Coast of Wisconsin
Posts: 660
Bikes: 2011 Surly LHT 2005 LeMond Zurich
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well the smart arses can have their fun about tossing apple cores in the woods, and say the fruit was locally sourced. That last bit is actually even worse. I work in the industry. The scourge for fruit production are the various fungal infections that are blown into orchards from rampant wild trees that grow from the seeds of apple cores tossed by thoughtless or unaware individuals.
!
!
Apple trees are fungal infection waiting to happen under the best of circumstances.
05-10-13, 06:29 PM
#32
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
Try again
Fruit is a seed delivery system. How many seeds germinate depends on a number of factors and the local climate. The number that can germinate is far fewer than one in several hundred or the delivery system wouldn't be very successful. An apple...or any fruit...thrown into the forest in the Colorado mountains probably won't germinate successfully or the plants may not survive the winter. But the same fruit thrown into more temperate forests have a much higher success rate.
Don't throw your trash into the woods...and apple cores as well as orange peels, banana peels, watermelon peels, etc. are all trash. Dispose of trash properly.
Don't throw your trash into the woods...and apple cores as well as orange peels, banana peels, watermelon peels, etc. are all trash. Dispose of trash properly.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
05-10-13, 07:53 PM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,480
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
7 Posts
There is enough trash on the 3/4 mile dirt road to my house thrown out by those who live on it to fill at least one ten gallon trash bag every two weeks. At least this is the amount that I can get to or see off the road.
I would say that in careful study of this trash, it is almost certain that almost no apples or other sudo naturally occurring objects are consumed by anyone. If, however mcdonalds, sonic, taco bell or burger king trees can be sprouted from various wrappings, then the fast food industry is in serious danger. And while a beer can sprouting a beer tree would be neat, unfortunately the species would be mostly limited to keystone trees, Milwalkees best shrubs, and miller highlife hedges. No Guinness orchards or the like.
I would say that in careful study of this trash, it is almost certain that almost no apples or other sudo naturally occurring objects are consumed by anyone. If, however mcdonalds, sonic, taco bell or burger king trees can be sprouted from various wrappings, then the fast food industry is in serious danger. And while a beer can sprouting a beer tree would be neat, unfortunately the species would be mostly limited to keystone trees, Milwalkees best shrubs, and miller highlife hedges. No Guinness orchards or the like.
05-10-13, 08:09 PM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times
in
32 Posts
The $7.99 all you can eat pizza hut lunch buffett is healthy and available in every small town....everyday. It's the greatest thing about this country. Right up there with Wal-mart.
Taking a dump two hours later by the river bank of my choosing is appreciated by every carp that swims by.
I don't take these things for granted. I love the modern world.
Taking a dump two hours later by the river bank of my choosing is appreciated by every carp that swims by.
I don't take these things for granted. I love the modern world.
05-10-13, 08:48 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,872
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Liked 283 Times
in
194 Posts
See, I knew if we could keep posting on the most mundane of threads, eventually we'll get off topic and then the fun begins.
Funny stuff shipwreck. So is that where the term Beer Garden came about?
Funny stuff shipwreck. So is that where the term Beer Garden came about?
Last edited by robow; 05-10-13 at 08:53 PM.
05-11-13, 09:46 AM
#36
Newbie
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hello Everyone,
I am Rob Greenfield, the adventurer that this thread is about and would like to give you a few more details of this coast to coast adventure. I'll answer any questions and clear up any misunderstandings.
I have extensive information on the trip and my intentions at www.GreenfieldAdventures.org
Follow me at www.Facebook.com/RobJGreenfield
-Using electricity generated purely by portable alternative energy devices. I am using solar panels from Goal Zero and The PowerPot to charge my laptop, cellphone, bike lights, headlight, etc. I am not plugging into any outlets, turning on any light, appliances etc. Some electricity has been indirectly used by cash registers, automatic doors and lights, getting cash at the bank, and small things like that. I am online so wifi is another small electricity draw but again my laptop is completely powered by solar.
-Creating near zero trash. Any created will be recycled up, cycled, or composted. Any that can't be will be carried all the way across the country. So far it has been extremely minimal, under 3 pounds of total waste, 90% of which could be recycled
-Using water solely from natural sources like lake, rivers, wells, and rain. I am purifying using a Katadyn pocket filter. I will not be using any water from the grid which means not turning on a faucet, using a toilet, taking a shower, etc.
-Eating locally produced, organic, and unpackaged foods. If that is not available then I am eating food that would have gone to waste. I am trying to have as little impact as possible on this trip and eating discarded food does just that.
-Composting all food waste. Rather than spreading it all over the place I am saving it up for a few days at a time and then burying it where the nutrients can be used. I am also using bokashi, an effective microorganism, that speeds up the breakdown process.
-Shopping at businesses that are committed to creating a healthy planet. When it comes to food this has been a bit of a challenge. It is very hard to tell if a little market in the middle of nowhere cares. This has probably been the most challenging of the tasks but I am very conscious and I speak to the manager/ owner at most stores and find out where they are at with sustainability.
All of this has been challenging and you can see the statistics for many of these tasks at www.GreenfieldAdventures.org under statistics. The whole idea is to have as minimal impact as possible and to inspire others to live a lower impact life. This trip is extreme, I don't live my life to this extreme. It's just 3 months and I am up to the challenge for it and have been happy and healthy so far.
To answer some questions:
Raybo-
Water has been quite easy to find even in the deserts of Nevada. I stock up when I get the opportunity and I keep my eyes open for it. I am of course purifying all water that I drink.
Organic locally produced food has been hard to come by in Nevada and Utah but it will get easier in a week once I hit eastern Colorado. When organic local food is not available I eat food that would have gone to waste.
I appreciate the help of trail angels but I can't accept things from them that don't follow the mission.
SuperTrouper.
It has been a challenge but at the same time I have had quite a few days. I am always challenging myself and I grow stronger because of it. Honestly though it hasn't been that bad.
Ciufalon.
Using water solely from natural sources like lake, rivers, wells, and rain. I am purifying using a Katadyn pocket filter. I will not be using any water from the grid which means not turning on a faucet, using a toilet, taking a shower, etc. Water on the grid takes energy and also often is pumped in from states far away. Dams have changed the way rivers flow and lakes have gone dry due to diversion of water.
bradtx
Yes it has been a challenge but I am sticking to it. My days are much busier than they would be if my goal was to only bike across the country but I am going for much more than that. I'm amazed at what can be done in 24 hours.
indyfabs
It has been difficult to "verify that Joe's Family Market in Podunk, KS has shown a commitment to a healthy planet?" but also those markets mostly have not had locally produced organic food so I haven't shopped at them anyway. Instead I have been eating discarded food that has no environmental impact. I have only purchased 2 packaged food items and those were local eggs from grass fed chickens.
staehpj1
I have been carrying food that is why I have the Bob trailer. By carrying a heavier load many of these tasks have been made easier.
I made it through hwy 50 in Nevada drinking water from lakes, rivers, and a well that pumped water from the ground using a windmill. Still have not turned on a faucet since I left and I think I've made it past the hardest part. Thanks for the comments!
Cyccocommute
By natural I mean water that has not entered the grid, been treated at facilities, came from the tap, been bottled, etc.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
Food- In Utah I have found local organic beef, pork, goat, lamb, chicken milk, yogurt, honey, eggs, cheese, jams, dried fruit, venison, and fish. I have to go out of my way to succeed but it means adapting in each state and eating what is available.
Biking is already a super green way of traveling yes but their are many more ways to be better to the planet.
------
I will answer more later but this is all the battery I have left at the moment. Thanks everyone for your comments, critiques, and for following.
I am Rob Greenfield, the adventurer that this thread is about and would like to give you a few more details of this coast to coast adventure. I'll answer any questions and clear up any misunderstandings.
I have extensive information on the trip and my intentions at www.GreenfieldAdventures.org
Follow me at www.Facebook.com/RobJGreenfield
-Using electricity generated purely by portable alternative energy devices. I am using solar panels from Goal Zero and The PowerPot to charge my laptop, cellphone, bike lights, headlight, etc. I am not plugging into any outlets, turning on any light, appliances etc. Some electricity has been indirectly used by cash registers, automatic doors and lights, getting cash at the bank, and small things like that. I am online so wifi is another small electricity draw but again my laptop is completely powered by solar.
-Creating near zero trash. Any created will be recycled up, cycled, or composted. Any that can't be will be carried all the way across the country. So far it has been extremely minimal, under 3 pounds of total waste, 90% of which could be recycled
-Using water solely from natural sources like lake, rivers, wells, and rain. I am purifying using a Katadyn pocket filter. I will not be using any water from the grid which means not turning on a faucet, using a toilet, taking a shower, etc.
-Eating locally produced, organic, and unpackaged foods. If that is not available then I am eating food that would have gone to waste. I am trying to have as little impact as possible on this trip and eating discarded food does just that.
-Composting all food waste. Rather than spreading it all over the place I am saving it up for a few days at a time and then burying it where the nutrients can be used. I am also using bokashi, an effective microorganism, that speeds up the breakdown process.
-Shopping at businesses that are committed to creating a healthy planet. When it comes to food this has been a bit of a challenge. It is very hard to tell if a little market in the middle of nowhere cares. This has probably been the most challenging of the tasks but I am very conscious and I speak to the manager/ owner at most stores and find out where they are at with sustainability.
All of this has been challenging and you can see the statistics for many of these tasks at www.GreenfieldAdventures.org under statistics. The whole idea is to have as minimal impact as possible and to inspire others to live a lower impact life. This trip is extreme, I don't live my life to this extreme. It's just 3 months and I am up to the challenge for it and have been happy and healthy so far.
To answer some questions:
Raybo-
Water has been quite easy to find even in the deserts of Nevada. I stock up when I get the opportunity and I keep my eyes open for it. I am of course purifying all water that I drink.
Organic locally produced food has been hard to come by in Nevada and Utah but it will get easier in a week once I hit eastern Colorado. When organic local food is not available I eat food that would have gone to waste.
I appreciate the help of trail angels but I can't accept things from them that don't follow the mission.
SuperTrouper.
It has been a challenge but at the same time I have had quite a few days. I am always challenging myself and I grow stronger because of it. Honestly though it hasn't been that bad.
Ciufalon.
Using water solely from natural sources like lake, rivers, wells, and rain. I am purifying using a Katadyn pocket filter. I will not be using any water from the grid which means not turning on a faucet, using a toilet, taking a shower, etc. Water on the grid takes energy and also often is pumped in from states far away. Dams have changed the way rivers flow and lakes have gone dry due to diversion of water.
bradtx
Yes it has been a challenge but I am sticking to it. My days are much busier than they would be if my goal was to only bike across the country but I am going for much more than that. I'm amazed at what can be done in 24 hours.
indyfabs
It has been difficult to "verify that Joe's Family Market in Podunk, KS has shown a commitment to a healthy planet?" but also those markets mostly have not had locally produced organic food so I haven't shopped at them anyway. Instead I have been eating discarded food that has no environmental impact. I have only purchased 2 packaged food items and those were local eggs from grass fed chickens.
staehpj1
I have been carrying food that is why I have the Bob trailer. By carrying a heavier load many of these tasks have been made easier.
I made it through hwy 50 in Nevada drinking water from lakes, rivers, and a well that pumped water from the ground using a windmill. Still have not turned on a faucet since I left and I think I've made it past the hardest part. Thanks for the comments!
Cyccocommute
By natural I mean water that has not entered the grid, been treated at facilities, came from the tap, been bottled, etc.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
Food- In Utah I have found local organic beef, pork, goat, lamb, chicken milk, yogurt, honey, eggs, cheese, jams, dried fruit, venison, and fish. I have to go out of my way to succeed but it means adapting in each state and eating what is available.
Biking is already a super green way of traveling yes but their are many more ways to be better to the planet.
------
I will answer more later but this is all the battery I have left at the moment. Thanks everyone for your comments, critiques, and for following.
05-11-13, 09:47 AM
#37
Newbie
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Water has been quite easy to find even in the deserts of Nevada. I stock up when I get the opportunity and I keep my eyes open for it. I am of course purifying all water that I drink.
Organic locally produced food has been hard to come by in Nevada and Utah but it will get easier in a week once I hit eastern Colorado. When organic local food is not available I eat food that would have gone to waste.
I appreciate the help of trail angels but I can't accept things from them that don't follow the mission.
www.GreenfieldAdventures.org
www.facebook.com/RobJGreenfield
Organic locally produced food has been hard to come by in Nevada and Utah but it will get easier in a week once I hit eastern Colorado. When organic local food is not available I eat food that would have gone to waste.
I appreciate the help of trail angels but I can't accept things from them that don't follow the mission.
www.GreenfieldAdventures.org
www.facebook.com/RobJGreenfield
05-11-13, 09:48 AM
#38
Newbie
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
By natural I mean water that has not entered the grid, been treated at facilities, came from the tap, been bottled, etc.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
Food- In Utah I have found local organic beef, pork, goat, lamb, chicken milk, yogurt, honey, eggs, cheese, jams, dried fruit, venison, and fish. I have to go out of my way to succeed but it means adapting in each state and eating what is available.
Biking is already a super green way of traveling yes but their are many more ways to be better to the planet.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
Food- In Utah I have found local organic beef, pork, goat, lamb, chicken milk, yogurt, honey, eggs, cheese, jams, dried fruit, venison, and fish. I have to go out of my way to succeed but it means adapting in each state and eating what is available.
Biking is already a super green way of traveling yes but their are many more ways to be better to the planet.
05-11-13, 10:09 PM
#39
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,362
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6219 Post(s)
Liked 4,218 Times
in
2,365 Posts
By natural I mean water that has not entered the grid, been treated at facilities, came from the tap, been bottled, etc.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
I made it through the Nevada desert by doing so. Salt Lake City had more water then I could have dreamed of. Snow runoff rivers were everywhere and their is a natural Artesian Well right in town.
Further east you are going to run across water that may contain other chemicals that aren't good for you either and for which your filter is useless.
Gramatically, 'their' posessive is different from 'there' as is a place.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
05-12-13, 07:36 AM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times
in
32 Posts
Now your are being really silly and not a small bit ignorant of what your filter does...and does not...do. Your filter will remove organism that can make you sick but it does nothing to remove other toxic contaminants. The grid that you pooh pooh can remove those contaminants because it can do things that you can't. There are streams within the mineral belt of Colorado that you should drink from because of mine drainage and if you don't have knowledge of what's upstream, you can be ingesting several toxic metals that are natural as all get out but hardly good for you.
Further east you are going to run across water that may contain other chemicals that aren't good for you either and for which your filter is useless.
Gramatically, 'their' posessive is different from 'there' as is a place.
Further east you are going to run across water that may contain other chemicals that aren't good for you either and for which your filter is useless.
Gramatically, 'their' posessive is different from 'there' as is a place.
05-12-13, 07:51 PM
#41
mine drainage and if you don't have knowledge of what's upstream, you can be ingesting several toxic metals that are natural as all get out but hardly good for you.
Further east you are going to run across water that may contain other chemicals that aren't good for you either and for which your filter is useless.
Further east you are going to run across water that may contain other chemicals that aren't good for you either and for which your filter is useless.
BTW: Many of these other chemicals are from agriculture.
Last edited by BigAura; 05-12-13 at 08:06 PM.
05-12-13, 08:23 PM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I tried "green touring" but there is like only one source for green cycling shorts, basically everyone makes black ones. So I find a pair made in Ireland, but they suck and were really expensive with shipping. So then I tried a green sharpie marker to color some of my black shorts, but that didn't work worth a darn. Now I'm using a short green skirt over my black shorts which is not bad, not entirely green, but not a bad compromise. The rest was a piece of cake, green dye or mini green skirts for things like handlebar bags that also only come in black. What is it with black, so many bike components in black only. A little food coloring and the water is shimmering green, there's even a "supplement" that makes your pee green.
So yes, to answer your question................ what was your question again?
So yes, to answer your question................ what was your question again?
