CargoDane

That's racing. I find the subject matter boring, even if it s "great cinema. Those kinds of things are for people with training regimes and a lot of suffering "just because". I've never watched TdF, nor do I enjoy watching racing for pros.
I think I'd like CX just for the nuttiness of it. Not for watching, but actually doing it - and doing it on a level where it was still merely fun. It's the same with football ("soccer" for you yanks): It's fun playing, but I really am not interested in the pros, nor interested in watching anyone playing the game. The same goes for sailing, coastal rowing, or basically any other sport I can think of that is or might be fun to do yourself. Of couse, there are plenty of sports where I wouldn't think it would be fun to do at all (Hurdles, 100m, gymnastics, American football, road racing, and hundreds of other sports that just seems boring to me).

subgrade

Some while ago I with some friends brought up the topic about which would be the most boring/pointless sport to watch in person. My version was rally raids, like the Dakar rally - the only place you'd know for sure to expect seeing someone driving by would be the start and finish of a stage. Then sailing was brought up and we all agreed that this one must be it - either you're are participating or not, there is no point to be a spectator.

And I agree that road racing (with the exception of crits) is up there too. It's mostly boring even televised, as it rarely matters what happens during the first 80% of the race. Not that a whole lot would happen anyway.

gene99

Cargo, My original comment was meant in a light hearted way. And, whether you choose to recognize it or not, "suffering" that ennobles great racers (and lesser ones too) has been an element of cycling as a sport, and a large part of its mythology, since the beginnings of the Tour de France. I happily view cycling as a big tent that can include sport, transportation, design and innovation and even political action. I choose to recognize all of them. I have suffered on the bike; I recommend you try it some time.

gene99

I know that, because it is writ large in the history of bike racing. Here is one example: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...riders-fitness

I have competed, yes. But one does not need to compete to suffer on the bike. Perhaps you have and just didn't recognize it.

CargoDane

I have already said I suffer at times, and that I like cycling despite of it. I will let the rest of the parts I bolded stand there.

gene99

and how comfortable is that dialed in saddle on the 25th section of Pave in the Hell of the North?

CargoDane

I live in Denmark. We have plenty of cobble stoned streets here. I don't need to race to "suffer" or find something uncomfortable or having to stand so my fillings won't shake loose. And I don't need to pretend I like to suffer or some other idiotic machismo.

Try doing those same cobbled streets with 40 kilos of cargo (or child) while jostling motor vehicles and riding a bike much longer and wider than those race bikes. Maybe your unloaded racing bike (or those you have seen on telly running on cobble stones) isn't so unique when it comes to not being comfortable.

rydabent

May only for less than 1%.

I have been riding bikes virtually my whole life, and enjoyed every minute of it. The moment I start to suffer when I ride is when I will get rid of them.

BillyD

The "suffering" notion is something embraced by those folks who are ultra passionate about racing and personal visualizations of racing. Many see themselves as following the pros and the intense training it takes to be a pro. That ultra-passionate group of folks have historically dominated the 41 for many years, with many of them even denigrating others who don't see it the same. To put it bluntly, if you weren't willing to suffer when you got on your bike you weren't a "serious cyclist".

Such rubbish. I'm happy to see more recreational cyclists finally and confidently pushing back against the nonsense. You can be as passionate as you want about cycling but don't try to paint everyone else as unworthy or inferior. The majority of cyclists actually ride recreationally with no urges to compete or race whatsoever. For them it's not even a "sport", it's an activity. Different strokes for different folks.

By the way, the only thing more boring than watching bike racing in person is watching golf on tv.

CargoDane

I don't even consider them passionate about cycling as such. I see them as ultra-passionate about training, not the actual cycling, if that makes sense.

cb400bill

You should try riding one in real life. They can be quite fun!

Cacti

I would love to build my own bike, but hear it's a LOT more expensive. Is that true? I'm told bike shops buy in such volume you can't beat their prices on individual parts

Lemond1985

Not if the frame and parts are used. And especially not if you're like me, and have enough spare wheels and components to build up several bare frames.

gene99

OK Cargo, I get it. You don't suffer on the bike. You don't want to suffer. You don't want to recognize that it is a central tenet of the mythology of cycling. Instead you want to insult those who do. You win. Live long and prosper. See you out there.

gene99

wow. you might want to look up "literal" and "humorless".

SurferRosa

You have to invest time and $120 or so in bike specific tools to add to your standard toolbox. Do it a time or two and it pays for itself. Do it twenty times, and it can pay for a nice stable of bikes that you can keep perfectly tuned for eternity.

BillyD

That’s just it, it’s not the central tenet. The vast majority of cyclists ride recreationally. Only a small minority of individuals who choose to pursue racing see suffering as a central tenet of cycling. To the others it’s just an occasional inconvenience of trying to enjoy oneself.

Lemond1985

Yeah, but hopefully these people understand that they will never get any more fit or faster, just riding with the same exertion level as they would when walking. They won't burn many calories either. To my mind, these people probably ought to be riding ebikes. Or should just stick with walking as an exercise.

BillyD

I don't think most recreational cyclists worry about getting "faster", the journey is the reward, that plus reaching where they set out to reach.

Also, you can cycle hard enough to get/stay fit without suffering. And don't demean walking, you can walk briskly enough to get an aerobic workout yet still not be suffering.

Even joggers can get/stay fit without suffering, and they're moving their own body weight unassisted. That "suffering" concept is just a schtick for some racing enthusiasts as far as I can see.

CargoDane

Wow, you really can't read, can you?

gene99

Cargo, did you not say, "I don't need to pretend I like to suffer or some other idiotic machismo."

How should that be interpreted, as a compliment?

CargoDane

I worry about going places. And often about if I can get there in time. There IS suffering at times, making it hard. I ride a frigging cargo bike, not an unloaded super light road bike, dressed in lycra. I ride to get to places, I ride because I like it. The occassional suffering is there, but I don't actually seek out suffering, and I find the very notion of finding suffering enjoyable outright laughable and empty machismo.

Gene99, as an example, somehow pretends I don't suffer in order to make a stupid strawman. I do suffer. I just don't like it. He should try riding a fully loaded cargo bike in traffic - and sometimes on cobbled streets, depending where I'm going.
It's as if road bikers think they're the toughest out there, that they can do anything, and that no other people can put power down, fight a hill, cobbled streets, or go into the wind. Most of the wanna-be racers I see around have no idea what it takes to take actually do something with your bike, carry heavy stuff around (including your kid), regardless of the weather, and regardless of the surface, because that's what you have to do.
Most normal people (i.e. not training-geeks) don't have time for going nowhere for, say, an hour each day on some superlight bike. They have to do sh-tuff.

There's a reason that road bikers tend to do supported tours where they don't have to carry anything, because somehow, that would mean they couldn't go "fast enough", yet they complain about suffering up hills, while riding dainty little ultralight bikes.

CargoDane

It shouldn't be "interpreted", and certainly not as if I was saying "I don't suffer". That's not even skirting the edge of truth, that's making a strawman.
In that same posts, I explained why it ws "idiotic machismo", and one part of that is that we all suffer at times, most people don't try to argue that they enjoy suffering or that suffering is a goal in itself. THAT is "stupid machismo" in my book.

You were the one (American) who tried to argue that Pros riding on cobbled streets somehow was proof that no one else could suffer (have you ridden there yourself? I bet not), and that people who didn't view suffering as goal, couldn't possibly suffer (as if that would be a bad thing).

Here's the post you tried to strawman:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21788512-post162.html

I gave you a concrete example of carrying a lot of weight, in cobbled streets, in traffic, while dodging traffic to keep your child safe. And you continue with wanna-be racer talk about people in tour de france doing a "tough" course on TdF. Yes, it may be tough for pros on ultralight bikes, but there are many ways something can be "tough".

CargoDane

Depends what you want. If you want specific things not easily gotten hold of by the shop, it will be expensive no matter what. And if you want things not easily gotten hold of by the shop, the price difference won't be huge anyway. If you want something reasonably standard, it can potentially be cheaper to go through a shop. But keep in mind, he will quite certainly add margins to each part, so even if he does get it cheaper, you may not.

CargoDane

I think I have found what you stumble over, Gene99, so let me rephrase the first paragraph of the folllowing post - part bolded is where I think you went wrong:
So, here's another try at that first paragraph:

I live in Denmark. We have plenty of cobble stoned streets here. Other people than racers and wanna-be racers suffer or find something uncomfortable or having to stand so my fillings won't shake loose. And I don't need to pretend I like to suffer or some other idiotic machismo.

So, there. More clear now?
​​​​​​​