Mechanic vs Di2 Maintenance
#76
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My bike is the Giant TCR Advanced Pro. I'm running the Wheels Manufacturing 290 derailleur. Right now, the bike is shifting very well. Here's a link to the derailleur hanger: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-290.html
The bike I had significant issues with the derailleur hanger was a Cannonade CAADX. It had significant issues even when I used the Wheels Manufacturing hanger, which was a 199. Here's a link: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-199.html
#77
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I respectfully disagree with those who bring up "weak" hangers.
First of all, I remind you that these are designed to break to protect the frame, in the same way a fuse protects a circuit. And I agree that some are weaker than others and may break too easily, analogous to a 15amp fuse in a circuit that could handle 20amps.
But bending is a different story. No hanger, regardless of its lack of strength bends without provocation. Normal shifting simply doesn't produce enough force. Also more force is needed to downshift, and that would bend the hanger out, rather than in.
So, I come back to my earlier suggestion that the OP needs to explore how and why he keeps bending hangers before doing anything elsre.
First of all, I remind you that these are designed to break to protect the frame, in the same way a fuse protects a circuit. And I agree that some are weaker than others and may break too easily, analogous to a 15amp fuse in a circuit that could handle 20amps.
But bending is a different story. No hanger, regardless of its lack of strength bends without provocation. Normal shifting simply doesn't produce enough force. Also more force is needed to downshift, and that would bend the hanger out, rather than in.
So, I come back to my earlier suggestion that the OP needs to explore how and why he keeps bending hangers before doing anything elsre.
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“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#78
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I respectfully disagree with those who bring up "weak" hangers.
First of all, I remind you that these are designed to break to protect the frame, in the same way a fuse protects a circuit. And I agree that some are weaker than others and may break too easily, analogous to a 15amp fuse in a circuit that could handle 20amps.
But bending is a different story. No hanger, regardless of its lack of strength bends without provocation. Normal shifting simply doesn't produce enough force. Also more force is needed to downshift, and that would bend the hanger out, rather than in.
So, I come back to my earlier suggestion that the OP needs to explore how and why he keeps bending hangers before doing anything elsre.
First of all, I remind you that these are designed to break to protect the frame, in the same way a fuse protects a circuit. And I agree that some are weaker than others and may break too easily, analogous to a 15amp fuse in a circuit that could handle 20amps.
But bending is a different story. No hanger, regardless of its lack of strength bends without provocation. Normal shifting simply doesn't produce enough force. Also more force is needed to downshift, and that would bend the hanger out, rather than in.
So, I come back to my earlier suggestion that the OP needs to explore how and why he keeps bending hangers before doing anything elsre.
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I'm not going to change the names. We're talking about bikes, not children! I took two pictures of the derailleur hanger on the bike:
My bike is the Giant TCR Advanced Pro. I'm running the Wheels Manufacturing 290 derailleur. Right now, the bike is shifting very well. Here's a link to the derailleur hanger: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-290.html
The bike I had significant issues with the derailleur hanger was a Cannonade CAADX. It had significant issues even when I used the Wheels Manufacturing hanger, which was a 199. Here's a link: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-199.html
My bike is the Giant TCR Advanced Pro. I'm running the Wheels Manufacturing 290 derailleur. Right now, the bike is shifting very well. Here's a link to the derailleur hanger: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-290.html
The bike I had significant issues with the derailleur hanger was a Cannonade CAADX. It had significant issues even when I used the Wheels Manufacturing hanger, which was a 199. Here's a link: https://wheelsmfg.com/derailleur-hanger-199.html
But that doesn't explain why you've had so many problems.
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I'm looking at the photos and could just be a distorted image but it looks like the left dropout is tweaked quite a bit which could cause some problems. Just asking.
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Haven't read the thread, just replying to the OP -
Rim brake Di2 is a great way to minimise your maintenance. For extra points, a frame with a threaded BB. But if your frame has a sketchy hanger (some are just soft), it'll keep messing up your shifting. Another advantage of Di2 is that you can adjust it on the fly...
There's a good chance the Wheels Manufacturing replacement for your hanger is stiffer; I'd try that.
Rim brake Di2 is a great way to minimise your maintenance. For extra points, a frame with a threaded BB. But if your frame has a sketchy hanger (some are just soft), it'll keep messing up your shifting. Another advantage of Di2 is that you can adjust it on the fly...
There's a good chance the Wheels Manufacturing replacement for your hanger is stiffer; I'd try that.
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Yes, it looks to be missing, and looking through the hole, it looks as if the holes do not line up as a result, so the hanger has turned on the existing screw. The missing screw would certainly explain the necessity of frequent adjustments, since the hangar would move.
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#85
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The bolt wasn't in as far in as the other one, but it wasn't missing. I took a picture from the other side. It's hard to see in the photo, but the one on the left sits further out, so it didn't go as far in:
Nevertheless, I was able to tighten it somewhat, see the before and after.
It seemed very tight (about as the tight as the one that goes further in) I don't want to tighten it any further at the moment. I tried to find the torque recommendations but didn't have any luck. Are torque specs specific to each derailleur hanger? Or, do they apply to derailleur hangers in general?
Nevertheless, I was able to tighten it somewhat, see the before and after.
It seemed very tight (about as the tight as the one that goes further in) I don't want to tighten it any further at the moment. I tried to find the torque recommendations but didn't have any luck. Are torque specs specific to each derailleur hanger? Or, do they apply to derailleur hangers in general?
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The bolt wasn't in as far in as the other one, but it wasn't missing. I took a picture from the other side. It's hard to see in the photo, but the one on the left sits further out, so it didn't go as far in:
Nevertheless, I was able to tighten it somewhat, see the before and after.
It seemed very tight (about as the tight as the one that goes further in) I don't want to tighten it any further at the moment. I tried to find the torque recommendations but didn't have any luck. Are torque specs specific to each derailleur hanger? Or, do they apply to derailleur hangers in general?
Nevertheless, I was able to tighten it somewhat, see the before and after.
It seemed very tight (about as the tight as the one that goes further in) I don't want to tighten it any further at the moment. I tried to find the torque recommendations but didn't have any luck. Are torque specs specific to each derailleur hanger? Or, do they apply to derailleur hangers in general?
These don't have to be torqued. Probably 3nM is way more than enough. This is more a "just past snug" situation, and shouldn't require a torque wrench at all. If they get loose, that's where you would use low strength. loctite to prevent moving.
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When I took the pictures this morning, I was wondering if the left dropout was bent. After your post, I took a better picture of it. If it is in fact bent, I imagine it would be at least partially responsible for some of my shifting problems, but how specifically? Also, how easy would it be to unbend the dropout?
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#90
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It is a little strange that the forward screw is more countersunk than the rear. It could be that the edge of the rear screw is hanging up on the edge of the hole instead of allowing the head to settle in. So I'd take that bolt out and look at whether the hole is actually shallower than the rear. If it isn't, you might have some wiggle that would explain why this hanger isn't behaving.
These don't have to be torqued. Probably 3nM is way more than enough. This is more a "just past snug" situation, and shouldn't require a torque wrench at all. If they get loose, that's where you would use low strength. loctite to prevent moving.
These don't have to be torqued. Probably 3nM is way more than enough. This is more a "just past snug" situation, and shouldn't require a torque wrench at all. If they get loose, that's where you would use low strength. loctite to prevent moving.
Last edited by AMoney; 02-04-24 at 06:10 PM. Reason: typo
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You know what would be nice?
If Wheels Mfg would make direct mount versions of their hangers for more recent bikes... The double hanger with two mounting bolts situation is just awful.
Probably not part of the problem here, since it's so widespread and isn't known for causing these dramas, but it certainly wouldn't help.
Anyway, I'd look closely at how the hanger connects to the dropout, as FB suggested. From your pics, I can't see any reason why one bolt should sit further out; maybe start there.
If Wheels Mfg would make direct mount versions of their hangers for more recent bikes... The double hanger with two mounting bolts situation is just awful.
Probably not part of the problem here, since it's so widespread and isn't known for causing these dramas, but it certainly wouldn't help.
Anyway, I'd look closely at how the hanger connects to the dropout, as FB suggested. From your pics, I can't see any reason why one bolt should sit further out; maybe start there.
#92
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Instead, I suspect that the hanger is not secure and rigid where it's attached. All too often, the mating surfaces either aren't flat, or something is preventing the hanger from pocketing correctly. That allows for it to move slightly throwing the RD off.
It's nice to see that folks are FINALLY considering this. Hopefully the OP can get the hanger properly and rigidly secured to the frame.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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Bend or break there has to be some outside force involved. Which is the point I've been trying to get across since way back in post #12. In post #35 I posited that----
Instead, I suspect that the hanger is not secure and rigid where it's attached. All too often, the mating surfaces either aren't flat, or something is preventing the hanger from pocketing correctly. That allows for it to move slightly throwing the RD off.
It's nice to see that folks are FINALLY considering this. Hopefully the OP can get the hanger properly and rigidly secured to the frame.
Instead, I suspect that the hanger is not secure and rigid where it's attached. All too often, the mating surfaces either aren't flat, or something is preventing the hanger from pocketing correctly. That allows for it to move slightly throwing the RD off.
It's nice to see that folks are FINALLY considering this. Hopefully the OP can get the hanger properly and rigidly secured to the frame.
There are definitely some hangers which bend surprisingly easily, and some people that seem blissfully unaware of how much they bang their bikes into things. So far their is no one cause for the OP's problems - mainly because we have no way of testing the previous bike.
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But the OP has reported multiple bent hangers on this bike, which is much more than a fluke.
IMO blaming the hanger is a distraction keeping people from a serious search for the actual cause.
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“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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Agreed that.some hangers are mire flexy than others, but bending wants an explanation. Also agree that some people are unaware of their n rough handling, so that MAY be the explanation.
But the OP has reported multiple bent hangers on this bike, which is much more than a fluke.
IMO blaming the hanger is a distraction keeping people from a serious search for the actual cause.
But the OP has reported multiple bent hangers on this bike, which is much more than a fluke.
IMO blaming the hanger is a distraction keeping people from a serious search for the actual cause.
@AMoney, do you have your QRs nice and tight? I have run into a lot of people who's quick release I could open with my fingers. Hangers like on your bikes rely on the QR for structural strength.
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Never said there wasn't either bending or other movement/deflection. That's a given. However the question remains whether it's movement or bending, and in either case HOW and WHY that's happening.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#97
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If the hanger wasn't bent, then straightening it wouldn't have corrected the problem (at least temporarily).
@AMoney, do you have your QRs nice and tight? I have run into a lot of people who's quick release I could open with my fingers. Hangers like on your bikes rely on the QR for structural strength.
@AMoney, do you have your QRs nice and tight? I have run into a lot of people who's quick release I could open with my fingers. Hangers like on your bikes rely on the QR for structural strength.
Bend or break there has to be some outside force involved. Which is the point I've been trying to get across since way back in post #12. In post #35 I posited that----
Instead, I suspect that the hanger is not secure and rigid where it's attached. All too often, the mating surfaces either aren't flat, or something is preventing the hanger from pocketing correctly. That allows for it to move slightly throwing the RD off.
It's nice to see that folks are FINALLY considering this. Hopefully the OP can get the hanger properly and rigidly secured to the frame.
Instead, I suspect that the hanger is not secure and rigid where it's attached. All too often, the mating surfaces either aren't flat, or something is preventing the hanger from pocketing correctly. That allows for it to move slightly throwing the RD off.
It's nice to see that folks are FINALLY considering this. Hopefully the OP can get the hanger properly and rigidly secured to the frame.
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I have repeatedly checked the rear QR since this thread. It is about as tight as it can be while still allowing it to be fully locked.
When you say pocketing, what do you mean? IF the dropout on the left side is bent (which is hard to tell if it is, I'll get another set of eyes or two in real life), would this be a possible culprit? If so, how easy would it be to unbend the dropout (which is carbon)?
When you say pocketing, what do you mean? IF the dropout on the left side is bent (which is hard to tell if it is, I'll get another set of eyes or two in real life), would this be a possible culprit? If so, how easy would it be to unbend the dropout (which is carbon)?
#99
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I have repeatedly checked the rear QR since this thread. It is about as tight as it can be while still allowing it to be fully locked.
When you say pocketing, what do you mean? IF the dropout on the left side is bent (which is hard to tell if it is, I'll get another set of eyes or two in real life), would this be a possible culprit? If so, how easy would it be to unbend the dropout (which is carbon)?
When you say pocketing, what do you mean? IF the dropout on the left side is bent (which is hard to tell if it is, I'll get another set of eyes or two in real life), would this be a possible culprit? If so, how easy would it be to unbend the dropout (which is carbon)?
Your issue is all about the hanger and right dropout.
By pocketing properly, I mean fitting together perfectly flat, with no wiggle room. The bolts should be holding it in place, but only that.
Test by assembling the hanger onto the frame holding it in place with thumb and forefinger. It should feel rock solid and unable to wiggle.
If this seems to be the issue, I'd assemble it with a bit of autobody filler, bolt it together tight squeezing excess out, and letting it cure. Then finish by mounting the wheel and using a hanger tool to align.
Last edited by FBinNY; 02-05-24 at 03:09 AM.
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