Rudirudi

Hi,
Iguess this has been discussed before, so feel free to mention any old threads...

I‘m in the process to decide for a carbon gravel frame/bike.
This is my list so far: (priority ordered)
1. Ibis Hakka MX
2. Santa Cruz Stigmata
3. BMC Unrestricted
4. Open Wi.De
5. Giant Revolt Advanced0

Are the boutique frames better made than the (supposedly) high volume giant? The Open costs 1k more than hakka or stigmata, is that build quality or something else? To me, all the mentioned bikes should be awesome, if they hold up.

tangerineowl

They'd all be good frames. For me warranty/customer service on a frame like those would be first. Plenty of reading online about claims with those companies.

There is a guy who cuts open carbon frames on youtube, but may not be those models.

Chi_Z

i would research on the factories those frames come from, if in doubt just pick Giant, you can't go wrong with them.

mstateglfr 

Carbon frames arent all equal in that a lower model carbon bike may use different material than a higher model carbon bike.

The boutique frames cost more for a number of reasons.
- Lack of economies of scale
- The brand is coveted for its design
- The brand is coveted for its story
- The frame looks cool
- The frame is really well made

It can be any number of the above reasons and more.
For the frames you mention, I would be most concerned with the geometry being what I want. Then I would care about look and cost in either order.

chas58

What he said. At any given price point, all the major players are going to be similar in "quality" but may have different ride characteristics - which is mostly going to come from geometry. Unlike metal frames, carbon frames require a mold - there is a large sunk cost that can really benefit from economies of scale.

Realistically, a cheap off brand carbon frame may be no better than a metal frame. Carbon allows the designer to do a lot of things. 10-15 years ago, everyone was making super stiff carbon frames, because we thought that was fast. These days we look for frames that are stiff in ways that give you good power transfer, yet are compliant in the ways that keep the rider comfortable. A higher grade carbon is going to save you a couple hundred grams (for what that is worth). I inadvertently ended up with a high end carbon frame, and it is amazing. very light, amazing power transfer and acceleration, yet comfortable enough to ride all day.

You can do a lot of research on the internet, but you'll only know if you like it by riding it.

Rudirudi

And exactly that is my question. How well are the bikes in question are made. Anything else, I can check myself...

mstateglfr 

- Ive read that ultrasonic testing can be used, but the obvious limitation there is that not many people are carrying around ultrasound machines or know how to use them to 'see' voids or delamination.
- You can use the often suggested coin test and tap a coin all over the frame to listen for a different sound. Thats probably as accurate as tapping a wall for studs.
- You could look at the frame and visually inspect the outside to confirm it is in good condition, which is pretty limited overall.

- You could cut the frame open to determine how well it was made. This is the best way as you can see the voids. You wont be able to use your frame any longer, but at least you will know if the frame was well made!


Its basically the same for steel and aluminum frames too. Welds can look really nice, but be weak. Welds can look really nice, but be a failure point due to application. Lugged brazing can look really nice but not have full coverage and be weak. Ive read how some Raleigh frames from the late 70s sometimes had the seat stays so poorly attached to the seat lug that paint effectively held the joint together. That is obviously an extreme example of poor quality being hidden.
Point being- it isnt always easy to determine quality, regardless of material used.

Rudirudi

I Love that one altough it has some Minor practical shortcomings...

chas58

You ever hear of frame problems - here or anywhere else? The only thing I've really heard of is Ti frames cracking - because they are so hard to weld properly. Shoot - the theory is that most frames come from the same handful of factories in Tiawan anyway (although different OEMs may have different quality control parameters).

I'm still not clear on what you mean by quality.
You mention how well they hold up. I have steel, aluminum, carbon bikes that I ride the crap out of and are still in good shape. Of course with the older ones, the components are all out of date and impractical to upgrade. Any good frame will last longer than you can buy good components for it.

unterhausen

I think all of the bikes you list will be durable. There are always bad frames, no matter what the manufacturer. So service and support are probably the best measures of quality. Giant makes tons of frames, many for other manufacturers. Doubt you are going to go wrong with one as long as it has the features you want

dwmckee

Yes!! Bargain mass produced carbon frames are nowhere near the same as a high-end frame made by companies like Open. (Open is owned by Vroomen who started Cervelo, designed for BMC, designs and has ownership in 3T, etc.) He did not invent carbon, but really knows how to build with it. They may be quite a bit more expensive, but riding one is a clear jump above a mass produced frame.

Here is just one review if a new Open WI.DE owner:
Over the course of 30 years I've ridden more than my fair share of new bikes. A few have been disappointing but most have been thoroughly enjoyable. First rides on a new bike usually have me saying things like, "super comfortable," "wicked fast," "great on technical single track." But the OPEN? The OPEN WI.DE is the first bike I've ever ridden where the maiden voyage had me asking, "how the hell did they do this?" I'm seriously dumbfounded. With 700 x 38s the bike was comfortable, stiff, nimble, and stupid fun. On smooth gravel I could point it and hammer. When things got a bit chunky I could flick it and rip...WTF? As for the second ride, I switched wheels to the 650 x 2.25s and had my mind blown again. Twice in two days! I hopped on some local single track, and had the incredible sensation of piloting a road bike through rock gardens, over fallen trees, and across shallow streams. I sailed past a group on mountain bikes who are still trying to figure out if they actually saw what they think they saw. Gentlemen, It's too much to take in. Please stop it. Actually, don't. Keep doing what you're doing. Whatever it is. Because it's not bike building as I know it. It's some otherworldly alien technology genius that redefines a bike, and recalibrates how big a smile can be etched across the weathered face of some average guy in western Pennsylvania.

You pay more for bikes like this, but you are getting the newest innovatons in design and materials that the other brands will be trying to copy for the next 5 - 6 years...

Qulity is throughout the design as well as in the construction and materials...

I ride mostly an Open U.P. now and can verify the ride quality as a quantum leap over a Trek, Cannondale or a Giant that is designed to a price point instead of being designed and built to be the best bike it can be.

mstateglfr 

It's like you brought your sales pitch and marketing material from the shop directly to the forum.
We get it- OPEN is the Chuck Norris of frames.

5teve

Those are all brands with good reputations. I would give weight to your tire clearance and geometry preferences, test ride availability and local shop support. If you can get one through a shop and build a relationship with them, it will be that much easier to get support if you do have an issue with the bike down the road. Take it from someone that bought a carbon frame direct from the company then had to try to get warranty replacement for a component at local shops. It was not fun or easy.

Rudirudi

So the answer is, basically, myself can‘t judge the quality easily. I rode the open wide and the stig. The latter felt better to me and santa cruz provides a lifetime warranty for the frame. So I‘m getting this. Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts!
R.

jan nikolajsen 

I have the new Stig, maybe 1k miles on it by now. This bike feels good on road, gravel and moderate MTB trails. Santa Cruz carbon frames have, imo, a very high level of finish quality.

Caliwild

I have a Hakka MX and love it... see no reason to spend more to go to an OPEN. The Stigmata is a nice bike too but I love the way the Hakka rides (and looks), especially with the 27.5 wheels... I am very impressed with the quality of the frame as well.

bonsai171

Chuck Norris is a cyclist!