Vellonaut

I got my Vello Bike+ from the Kickstarter campaign.

I do not recommend any Vello Bike for three reasons.

1) The folding mechanism is extremely dangerous. When using the front brake, momentum pushes the rear end forward, then the magetic coupling unlocks and the bike collapses under the rider, throwing the rider over the handlebars. This happened to me several times at modest speed (10km/h). It would happen a lot more easily at high speed with emergency braking or when hitting a pothole. I have tied the folding mechanism so it is permanently closed, and a bit safer to ride.

2) The bike seems to have been designed for Vienna and other 'flat and low-rust' cities only. The Bike+ motor and gearing is too weak to assist the bike up modest (10 degree+) slopes, and the bolts and some other parts rust like crazy.

3) The company isn't trustworthy. It misled crowdfunding backers continuously and didn't deliver what was promised. Many years have passed, and a check of the comments suggest that bikes still haven't been delivered to all backers. The bikes that have been delivered didn't include promised upgrades (brakes), attachments (rear rack), or the ones included were the cheapest possible (carrier bag, bell, lock, lights).


If you're still tempted, be sure to review the comments at Kickstarter and Indiegogo

jondron

Interesting!

I've never experienced anything remotely like issue number 1: I wonder if that has been changed in more recent models? The magnetic coupling is, if anything, too solid for me: it doesn't do the super-cool instant fold of the Brompton, because you really have to push hard with your foot to get it to open, and I lift the bike a lot (daily, often a few times) but have never had it fold on me unexpectedly. To be fair, if you pulled hard on the front brake without pulling the rear brake first on most bikes you would be tossed over the handlebars, which seems much worse to me.

I completely agree about the weakness of the motor - it is much harder to get up hills than on my old conventional 350w ebike. Apart from the issue of hill starts when the motor is not activated (which is a serious design flaw), I'm OK with that and actually see it as a positive feature because I want the exercise - it was a deliberate choice to downgrade the power - but the motor definitely gives no more than a bit of assistance, even in turbo mode. No more and no less than having a stiff breeze behind you.

I've not experienced any problems with rust yet, despite living in what is technically a rain forest, though a big part of the reason that I need a small folding ebike is that I have to keep it inside. Useful to know that I might need to be a bit more careful wiping it down.

That's worrying information about the company. I've had mixed luck with them so far - very responsive once, then total silence. And, yes, it's really annoying that the company still claims on at least one page that a back rack is available (it is not), and it's a pain that some of the other touted options - notably the mountain drive - are not available from their online store either. I am very unimpressed with Zehus, the motor manufacturers: I have left several messages on their help page but received no reply. That's really worrying because of the really dumb/evil dependency on their web server, and the bugginess of the app and the firmware. I just hope they fix that before they go out of business.

One issue that has become more annoying now that I've had the bike for a while is its tendency to keep pulling when you are wheeling it along. It can be quite disconcerting and potentially dangerous. The trick is to deactivate it by tilting the bike (any direction) but it's not always convenient and it's easy to forget. And the motor still crashes every now and then, especially when going up hills, which is the last time you want it to happen.

Despite all its flaws, I still love the bike. It's just really nice to ride, most of the time, and really easy to carry and store. In retrospect perhaps I should have waited until Brompton finally ships to Canada but, given that a similar spec Brompton costs at least half as much again and, though folding smaller and smarter, is a fair bit heavier, it's not a bad compromise.

Vellonaut

Thanks for the response!

I do wonder if the collapsing bike is caused by a particular weight balance, angle, speed or whatever. But, at the end of the day, the fact that it happens at all, ever, should be a death-knell to the design. After having the magnetic coupling unlock unexpectedly, I appreciate how other bikes have sturdy locking mechanisms to prevent surprises.

I experimented with the modes when the bike first arrived and have mostly left it in the Bike+ (self charging) mode since then. That's a reflection of the mode being useful and the app being clunky more than anything else.

There's a long backstory to Zehus and the IP. If you google FlyKly, Zehus and Superpedestrian you'll get a sense for it, and why Zehus sell a slightly different product (not all-in-one) in the US. So their business is not just a technical one, it has been and maybe still is very driven by litigation and patents.

I have enjoyed riding the bike, with a couple of major exceptions. But I would trade it for a non-electric Brompton without hesitation.

Jipe

I do not understand how the rear wheel can fold when braking ?

For remembrance, older Brompton (till 2010 or so) had no locking of the rear triangle at all and such a folding of the rear triangle never occurred when braking.

Now, maybe the front-rear weight balance of the Vellobike+ is different with much more weight on the front wheel than on the Brompton ?

This seems to me be a mandatory condition for the rear wheel folding under the frame when braking, without that, even without any locking of the rear triangle, it will never fold when braking.

Now about the other problems of the Vellobike+, actually, I never saw any kickstarter project bike that keeps the promises made during the fund raising campaign: they are all heavier, bigger, lower performances and come (much) later than promised !

Remember also that there are never any warranty that kickstarter project backers receive anything in reward of their funding.

jondron

I didn't realize that Bromptons no longer have the free swinging rear frame. I have one such older Brompton (1999 model, owned from new) and I love its folding action - it literally takes less than a second and I do it as second nature whenever I park the bike. The Vello doesn't even come close, especially as that rear fold is virtually useless without folding the front too. The only time the free swinging is a hassle is when trying to do maintenance - if you want to stand it upside down you need a bungee cord to hold it in place (not an issue with the Vello). It has never been a problem while riding, over well over 10,000km, though it can lift a little on very uneven ground, and I'd certainly not want to try any stunts with it! I rarely ride it now, though, partly because it is old and worn (and the parts are really expensive to replace), but mainly because the Vello is so much better against the wind and up hills. I miss the gears a lot (my Brompton is one of the old 5 gear Sturmey Archer models) and the fact that the Brompton can consequently go way faster when conditions are right. On the whole, though, the Vello rides a little better, is not perceptibly heavier, and that motor really helps.
@Vellonaut, I'm impressed that you keep it in Bike+ mode: that's too much effort for me, as the max power available on that mode is only about 150w and the overall effort involved is greater than it would be for an equivalent manual bike, albeit spread much more evenly. You're right, on that setting it is really useless on more than a very gentle slope. Mine mostly stays in ebike mode, which (with a bit of judicious back pedalling down hills and when braking) can keep it going for about 50km and provides about 225w of power, which is significantly more comfortable up hills. The turbo mode gives the full 250w, but eats battery way too fast and makes it too easy on the flat, requiring virtually no effort up to 25kph. I may experiment with other settings again some time but, as you say, the app is clunky and, more to the point, bug ridden to the point it can render the motor inoperable for several minutes if you use it. Definitely one to set at the start of the journey and leave it. It has also stopped recording the distance travelled some of the time, so even that potentially useful feature is worse than useless. I find it very disappointing that a perfectly decent and very clever bit of engineering can be let down by such an awful bit of software, and that Zehus does not seem to be committed to developing or properly supporting it.

Vellonaut

Jipe asked about the folding.

The front and rear of the Vello biikes are held together with a magnetic coupling, which is easily opened as in the attached image. Once it is open, the two parts rotate freely





When the bike is moving forward and sufficent braking is applied to the front wheel, a similar folding action happens. The front wheel slows, the back wheel continues forward for a moment longer, opening the magnetic coupling and pushing the rider upwards. The motor unit has a lot of mass, so it has a lot of momentum to transfer.

Watch this video from 5:10 to 5:20 and you can see how the back portion of the frame moves forward and folds the bike. When riding, the front portion of the frame is being braked where the front wheel contacts the road, and the front of the bike rotates forward around that area, swinging the handlebars forward and then down into the road. I guess braking causes a transfer of the angular momentum from the front wheel to the frame, which also acts to get the frame's rotation started.

The result is the rider continues moving forward, over the handlebars, as the back wheel folds underneath. Bracing by pushing against the handlebars doesn't help, as the handlebars are rotating forward.

My personal experience is that the whole process took seconds, between braking and being thrown over the handlebars. There's a bit of guesswork in my explanation about how that happened.

Jipe

As said the Brompton rear triangle folding is the same and had no locking at all till 2010-2011 (I do not remember when locking was introduced) and even on new Brompton, the rear triangle locking can be disabled by rotating the suspension block. And this never causes any problem.

But, indeed I forgot that the Vellobike+ has a rear wheel motor.

You mention the weight of the rear wheel with the heavy motor hub. This could be the problem or a part of the problem.

The other cause could be that the motor keeps pushing for a while when you start braking with the front brake (I guess that the Vellobike+ has no brake detection switch on the brake levers ?).

Last possible cause, the cyclist weight distribution on both wheels vs. on the Brompton: maybe more cyclist weight on the front wheel/less on the rear wheel on the Vellobike+ than on the Brompton ?

Of course, all three causes can combine: motor weight in rear wheel+motor keeping pushing during front braking+less weight on the rear wheel.

What you could try to help a little is to move your saddle as much as possible to the rear.

Vellonaut

Possible! The Zehus hub is 'all in one' so there's no brake detection and the hub would continue to 'assist' once the front brake has been applied.

Jipe

I guess there is also no torque or pedaling detection ?

How does the motor detect that the cyclist doesn't pedal anymore and that the cyclist is braking ?

Could it be a problem of adjustment of some parameters in the Zehus system ?

Vellonaut

It does have sensors (maybe wheel rotation and chain torque) that work fine for normal use. But does that setup detect and respond fast enough to work safely with hard front braking?

Jipe

In most eBike, the torque sensor is placed in the bottom bracket.

I guess, that Zehus wanted to have everything in the rear hub and so no sensors in the bottom bracket ?

Vellonaut

Yes, that sounds right.

jondron

It has 4 sensors: torque, accelerometer, gyroscope, speed (cadence). They are not 100% reliable even in normal use. The problem of supplying power while walking the bike is a big one and, every now and then, there is a slight jerkiness (less than even a Bosch-powered bike, but perceptible) when one or more sensors are confused. I find speed bumps can sometimes throw it off for a second. But they are not instantaneous because there is no mechanical on/off switch anywhere outside the motor casing so there has to be a slight lag. I'm pretty certain the folding problem is simply caused by the motor continuing to run. But, unless you are doing a stunt (not a good idea on the Vello!) I don't understand why you would ever do hard front braking without at least simultaneous and normally prior rear braking. It would throw you over the handlebars on any bike. Unless it is happening at low speed? How fast do you have to be going for it to occur?

Vellonaut

The riding style is the same as used on a conventional bike, and it becomes potentially fatal on a Vello. On a normal bike, the rider braces against the handlebars while braking. On a Vello, once the magnetic coupling opens,the handlebars are part of the front section which simply rolls forward over the front wheel.

It might be possible to find a way to execute safe braking on the bike. But that's a hack. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a Vello rider to adjust their riding style, especially since the bike doesn't come plastered with warning labels saying that's essential for safe riding.


My bad experiences were at about 10 km/h. The motor assist cuts out at 25 km/h, so a commuter pace could be much faster.


Why not use the rear brake more? The rear brake is pretty ineffective at slowing the Vello Bike+. Beyond very slight braking, the rear wheel skids.

Jipe

This is a confirmation that there is little weight on the rear wheel.

The problem could then be a combination of several causes.

What you could try is to test if the problem also appear if you switch the assist off.

Vellonaut

Jipe I might not have put enough emphasis about just how dangerous the problem is. I was pretty badly hurt after being thrown over the handlebars at moderate speed, with injuries that took weeks to heal. I was lucky not to have sustained a major head injury. I was lucky to have been able to spend a few minutes on the road, picking myself up and tending to injuries, without fear of other vehicles. Other riders may not be so lucky.

There is no way I am going to test any fix that lets the frame open and throw me over the handlebars again!

Jipe

Sorry, I didn't understood that it caused such an accident.

BTW, did you contact the reseller who sold you the bike ? He is responsible of bad design of products he is selling.

Vellonaut

Mine came from the Kickstarter, not from a reseller. I've shared my experiences with Vello.

Jipe

And, any feedback from Vello ?

Vellonaut

No response from Vello.

riverwave

Velonaut:

“Watch from 5:10 to 5:20 and you can see how the back portion of the frame moves forward and folds the bike.”

At 5:36 to 5:48 the video shows the clamp and metal splint on the front fork. Why don’t these prevent the front from folding?

Vellonaut

Yeah, the clamp and splint on the fork is very secure. If the back portion was locked that way, the bike wouldn't be so dangerous.

riverwave

“On a Vello, once the magnetic coupling opens,the handlebars are part of the front section which simply rolls forward over the front wheel.”
But if the front fork is secure (with its clamp and splint) why is the front able to fold on the move?

rhenning

I think what he is trying to say is the handle bars, fork, front of the bike all pivot forward on the frame hinge when braking. Not sure the reasons why. Maybe he is standing up or??? Roger

timorez

I cant see how this can happen - I also owned an older Brompton that didn’t even have the magnetic lock but never had this problem and I was a lot lighter then than I am now! My 70 kg has had no issues on my vello - I’ve not used it much as have an e bike (my vello isn’t the electric one) - the only thing I can think of that may of caused it is if you shifted your weight forward off the seat under braking and even then it’s a hard thing to imagine happening. Vello folds the same as a Brompton and they have never had issues with their design that I heard of. I find the magnetic lock to be pretty strong too,it takes a good bit of force to disengage it to fold. I will keep myself planted firmly on the seat and brake gently now. I like having the safety pin through the front fork,that definitely gives that end an added layer of security,maybe if this becomes an issue for other vello riders they’ll have to add something like that to the rear. Glad your ok - no doubt you’d still get a good price for your vello seeing how hard they are to come by...