wthensler 

Hello,

I’m looking at one of two Giant Defy Advanced Pro endurance bikes - the Pro 0 and the Pro 1. There is a large difference in price, which as best I can tell is mainly the SRAM drivetrain componentry. The Pro 0 offers the eTap Red AXS series, the Pro 1 is the eTap SRAM Force ASX.

I have an older (2012) Giant Defy Advanced 0 which has the electric Shimano Ultegra Di2. I love the Ultegra Di2 and this would be my preferred, but it appears Shimano is not an option on these bikes. I am thinking of a 2020 primarily due to brakes, wider tires and improved seat and handlebar design.

I’m 62, so won’t be racing, but I do enjoy spirited rides in the hills of VA, am a decent rider, and am sold on electronic versus mechanical shifting. So I am wondering if anyone has experience with Red versus Force and could provide some feedback. Would I even feel the difference at my riding level? By the way, I’ll probably keep both bikes.

Thank you,

William

Fox Farm

Are they the electronic shifting Red and Force? The concept behind the AXIS is that you have a greater range of low and high gearing because of the 10 tooth cassette and smaller chain rings. Since you live where, near the Blue Ridge Parkway, you would make use of that. Personally, I am a Campy user but have SRAM on my gravel bike and it is not too bad. Yes, Shimano is very smooth but I don;t care for the brake shifter levers and also prefer the more positive feel of the shifting click of Sram and Campy. Again, this is a personal thing. One thing that I do know about the different levels of Sram is that the shifting is the same feel across their three main product lines, but it is the weight and materials that differ. With Shimano, you can feel the different in shifting between, say 105 and Dura Ace. Not as much between Ultegra and Dura Ace as they feel about the same. Have you test rode either of these new Giant bikes with the Sram setup? How do the hoods feel to your hands? What will you do with your older bike? It is what, 11 speed? The new one will be what, 12 speed? You will like the disks but for me the bigger benefit of disks would be increased tire clearance with an ability to run 700x30 tires. No pun but that is a huge benefit. You could even do some gravel riding with the bike this way.

wthensler 

Both SRAMS being offered on the 2020 Giants are electronic (eTap). If I go ahead with the upgrade, it would be primarily for the benefits outlined above, and not necessarily the shifting, as I’ve been very happy with the Shimano Ultegra Di2 on both current bikes.

I’d be interested to hear from those with experience on both Shimano and SRAM electric shifting systems, Here is the extent of my knowledge and experience regarding the present situation:

1) I’ve used Shimano Ultegra Di2 for years - completely satisfied, bulletproof, no chain drops, smooth shifting, etc. All good.

2) The wireless of the SRAM would not be a game changer for me. I’m a bit concerned the different shifting pattern would confuse me as I’m back and forth on bikes.

3) I don’t mind spending more, but is the eTap Red, which is almost $ 2k more than the eTap Force, really worth it?

4) Most reviews I’ve read seem to (slightly) give the nod to Shimano in the electric offerings, but this may be moot as SRAM appears to be the only game.

5). I am open minded and willing to try new things, despite my high level of satisfaction with Shimano.

6) I’ve also read that, other than the levers, there is little discernible difference between Red and Force, at least for the average user.

Thanks for any advice you can direct my way,

Noctilux.95

Ask your dealer if he can swap the Force for Ultegra Di2. You gain better shifting, less weight, more reliability, better brakes, and more importantly, no sram decals anywhere on your bike.

datlas 

I have only spoken with friends who have used both Force and Red and the consensus is they are very similar.

If it were me, I would go with Force to save money. If you are a weight weenie and/or have money to burn, go for Red.

You will find plenty of people who get into the whole Shimano vs SRAM, but that's another can of worms.

DaveSSS 

If you look into the price of both component groups, red costs much more, but not $2000 more. Other components on the higher priced model will be different.

Keep in mind that shimano will have 12 speed out this fall, so 11 speed is coming to the end of it's life. Sram and Campy both have 12 speed.

If not bought on a prebuilt bike, SRAM AXS groups are outrageously priced.

I would think that the substantially different shift patterns would be annoying.

topflightpro

There are two things to consider. First, weight. Red is lighter than Force. Do you care about the weight difference? Second, power. The Red version comes with a Quarq. The Force version does not. Do you want a power meter on your bike?

If lower weight and power are your concerns, get the Red. If you are fine with a slightly heavier option and no power, go with the Force. The performance difference between Red and Force is negligible, IMO.

(My wife bought a 2020 TCR with Force a few months ago and she is very happy with it, though the TCR Force comes with a Quarq.)

Rides4Beer

This is what I did. I didn't want SRAM, so I bought an Advanced 1 and had the shop upgrade it to di2 (even gave me a deal on trading in the takeoff parts). Came out significantly cheaper than the Pro, and I didn't care about the other features of the Pro. Plus, the Wine Purple on the Advanced 1 is awesome.

eduskator

This is something I'll never get - why Giant does not offer a DI2 option on its Defy Adv. Pro lineup like they do with the TCR.

Short answer, the Red is better than the Force (you can compare it to DA vs Ultegra), but I doubt you would feel the difference.

CF wheels & steerer tube = the 2 main differences between Adv. and Adv. Pro. Sick color by the way! Love the slammed down stem.

Rides4Beer

Yup, knew I'd be changing wheels anyway, and I don't like the Pro stem setup, even if the OD2 steerer is supposed to be stiffer. Thanks, with the extra stack from the ht, it's the same height with the stem slammed as my Tarmac was with spacers.

wthensler 

Thanks for all the great information! This has been quite useful as I contemplate the next move. Always a fun part of purchasing a new bike!

scott967

I've also been been checking out force v red 2x AXS etap. It looks like how force/red has differed in the past: crankset. Red crankset is quite a bit lighter also has more chainring options but it's one-piece so what rings you get are what you will have to be happy with. In the past red cassette was a single piece -- very nice but expensive. Not sure what it is on the 12 spd but I think force pg1270 is probably all you need unless you have money to burn. There's also the Quarq option on red.

From what I can tell (always kind of a mystery with SRAM) the crank spindle is designed for 86.5 shell and uses spacers for other shells (except there is a BB with outboard bearing for BB/PF30 which I guess brings it up to the same width as the 86.5). What I don't see is what controls the axial position of the crank (no step like GXP maybe wavy washers plus extra spacers?) Unlike the past there doesn't seem to be all the spindle length variations, with/without removable spider etc.

scott s.
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justonwo

I think the SRAM Red vs Force paradigm is similar to the Dura Ace and Ultegra paradigm. Performance is very similar, with weight being the primary difference. In this case, Red also includes the power meter. For me, that’s an invaluable tool, so it would probably opt for Red.

As for the difference in shifting between Di2 and AXS, I have significant experience with both. I rode Di2 Dura Ace for 4 years and absolutely loved it. It is smooth and crisp and never skips a beat. I now have a full Red AXS drive train on my Roubaix. It’s 99.5% of the shifting smoothness of Di2; I usually get one slightly “off” shift every ride or so. I can’t account for that. I also have a full Red AXS drive train on my Canyon Ultimate. That drivetrain is 100% as nimble and quiet as my old Dura Ace Di2.

However, AXS has a major advantage over Di2 in that you can get a much wider range of gearing (both high and low) than what Shimano currently offers. On my Roubaix, I’m running a 46-33 in the front and a 10-33 in the back, which means I can get a gear ratio of 1.0 (and two lower gears than the lowest of what I could get from my generation of Di2). I also get one higher gear than my old Di2 setup (50-34 and 11-28). On my Ultimate, I have a 10-33 cassette and a 48-35 and still have better gearing than what I can get from Shimano. And the brakes are dead quiet and work like magic.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the transition from Di2 to AXS. I think SRAM has done a very nice job. I would expect great performance from Force or Red.
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wthensler 

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for - real world experience from the field.

I’m not afraid to try the eTap SRAM Red ASX given that rumors abound Shimano is coming out with a 12 speed version late this year, or possibly pushed into 2021. I’m sure it’ll be great, but won’t get caught up again in buying a mature product from Shimano that was no longer supported. And I’m living on borrowed time with the 6770 group set on both my bikes.

So unless I’m willing to wait that long for the new release (and for it to make its way to bikes I want), I have my answer.

Funny, some of the anecdotal evidence I’ve heard from several bike shops regarding electric shifting. Do they even use them?

In the 8 years with Ultegra Di2, I’ve dropped a chain twice, run out of juice twice (my bad), and had only one firmware update on one of the bikes. And endless miles of precision shifting.......

Rides4Beer

You can go 1:1 or better with 8000 series uDi2, officially it can handle an 11-34 cassette with a GS derailleur (that's what I'm running), but people are also using 11-36 and report no issues.

justonwo

I haven’t spent a lot of time on this forum, but in the little time I’ve been here I’ve observed a baffling number of negative comments about SRAM’s new road groupset. I have a couple of minor nitpicks of my own, but in general the performance is exceptional. I don’t have any particular brand loyalty toward either company. Like probably everyone here, I’ve spent more years on Shimano drive trains than anything (starting in the early 90s). I rode their 9 speed mechanical on my first MTB for many years. Then 10 speed XT on my next MTB. 10 speed Ultegra on my Cervelo. Dura Ace mechanical. Dura Ace Di2. I love Shimano products.

But SRAM has matured to a level that they are, in my opinion, on par with Shimano’s groupsets. The majority of the negative opinions I see around here seem to come from those that have never actually ridden AXS. There seems to be a lot of hand-wringing over their decision to go with smaller chainrings. The missed shift I get every 20-30 miles on my Roubaix will eventually get resolved, I’m confident. At some point, I’ll double check the hanger alignment. It’s nothing more than a sluggish shift, and it’s potentially related to trim. On my Canyon, I have yet to miss a shift. It’s every bit as smooth, quiet, and confident as my Di2 Dura Ace system was. I originally thought AXS was a little less accurate when shifting under load, but SRAM seems to have worked out these kinks.

A number of my roadie buddies have gotten bikes in the last year with AXS and I’ve heard nothing but positive feedback from these guys. Like me, they all have many years of experience with Shimano.

Yeah, I’ve been aware of this for a while. At one point, I considered making the change on my old rim brake Roubaix, but I wanted disc brakes and needed to get a new bike anyway. I’m referring to the stock road configuration. My guess is the OP would prefer avoiding buying a bike and then immediately having to change the cassette, derailleur, and chain. That’s a great option for an existing Shimano user, though.

Rides4Beer

Defy comes with the gs derailleur and 11-34 stock, not a big deal if he has the shop swap it all out for di2 anyway, but they were able to leave the cassette and chain for my setup.

wthensler 

I’m most likely going to try the SRAM. Getting a fitting next week to finalize bike size, and a few final discussions with LBS.

Might as well go Red.

Thank you all for all the feedback!

justonwo

Oh, got it. That’s very cool!

justonwo

I think you’ll be very satisfied. Give me a shout if you have any questions. I’m happy to help.

Dean V

The Advanced does have a carbon steerer as well. It is just 1 1/8" instead of 1 1/4".
This was actually a plus to me as I would rather have a better stem selection. I don't notice the theoretical difference in rigidity between the two steerer sizes when riding.
I wasn't that excited about the Giant carbon wheels either as I used some Enve AR 4.5 on mine.

DaveSSS 

SRAM red only comes on the very highest priced models and force comes on a little lower priced models, but still in the upper 1/3. If bought on a new OEM bike the groups may be fairly priced, but if you want to build your own bike from a frame and parts, the groups are extremely high priced. They must be reserving most of their production for OEM. I bought two Campy Chorus 12 speed mechanical groups for the price of one Force AXS. Campy 12 has the same range and better sprocket spacing on their 11-34, compared to SRAM's 10-33. SRAM gave up range with their 46-33 crank, probably because their front shifting is not the best and had to make it up with wider sprocket spacing. If you don't have the big bucks for red or force, you're out of luck. Their 22 speed mechanical groups are dead.

Dean V

Why are people still going on about Sram front shifting being sub par??
It has worked well for years now.

justonwo

They didn’t give up range. They added range. And if you don’t like 46-33, you can get a 50-37. They have absolutely no issue with FD shifting, so I’m not sure where you’re getting your information.

The OP asked about Di2 vs AXS and, so far as I can tell, I’m the only person so far that has ridden extensively on both. I see a lot of opinions on this groupset from people that have never ridden it or that differ radically from my experience and those folks I know who are riding AXS.

Racing Dan

Ive noticed SRAM 12s road spares are very expensive. Cassette, rear mech, etc. Something to consider, if price is a factor.

11s 50/34+11-34 is almost the exact same "range" as 12s 46/33+10-33, - About 455% total, but the gearing distribution is much different.

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