Chains
#51
Senior Member
Hmm. I don't know anyone else who's doing it old school like that, but to each his own. The screw-type master links seem to do ok for the pro keirin riders in Japan, and though I don't yet have any experience with the clip-type, I know that's what they use in BMX and the pros must put a lot of torque into them doing gate starts.
#52
Lapped 3x
Always used the circlip style master link - KMC Master Link 410 - $9.99
Has never failed on me, easy enough to remove, and they still use the design on motorcycles. Just make sure that the closed end is leading the open end in the direction of travel.
Has never failed on me, easy enough to remove, and they still use the design on motorcycles. Just make sure that the closed end is leading the open end in the direction of travel.
#54
Full Member
I've had that style of link fail me on a road chain, but on a track chain I would think that a potential failure would be significantly less likely.
Last edited by dunderhi; 12-19-14 at 06:53 AM. Reason: Typo
#55
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#56
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I also would be concerned about the braking force (not breaking force) working against some tension-based Master Links. Although the bolt-style Master Link design of the Izumi V Supertoughness, can't fail in a negative tension situation, I can't imagine myself trusting that little nut holding tight while I'm sprinting on a track. As a result, my Izumi V is hard pinned.
In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
#57
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I bet it's far more likely to have a chain break at a point where a pin was re-inserted than it is at a master link.
#58
Senior Member
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here, and wonder if you can explain what you mean about the braking force working against tension-based master links? a braking force (i.e back-pedaling/ resisting the forward pedal momentum), still keeps the chain under tension, but transfers the max tension from the top of the chain to the bottom?
In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
FWIW, as long as you check the connection every once in a while, the screw/locknut concept is excellent. If it binds, you can always back the screw out a quarter turn and use the lock nut to make sure it doesn't unscrew. I went so far as filing a little locknut wrench for this purpose. If the lock nut is tight, it shouldn't unscrew.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#59
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I assume that same snappy change in tension is what yields weirdly high power numbers in Standing Starts- especially done in small gears.. It's like a hammer blow
#60
Full Member
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here, and wonder if you can explain what you mean about the braking force working against tension-based master links? a braking force (i.e back-pedaling/ resisting the forward pedal momentum), still keeps the chain under tension, but transfers the max tension from the top of the chain to the bottom?
In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
FWIW, as long as you check the connection every once in a while, the screw/locknut concept is excellent. If it binds, you can always back the screw out a quarter turn and use the lock nut to make sure it doesn't unscrew. I went so far as filing a little locknut wrench for this purpose. If the lock nut is tight, it shouldn't unscrew.
#62
Senior Member
Pushing pins out and reinserting them flares out the hole the pin is reinserted into - it's something I would never do to a track chain. The master links are more than big and scary enough to handle the stress, and reinserting pins would, to my mind, introduce a weak point to the chain.
#63
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I would go as far as to say it is damn near impossible for a track chain to fail if it is cut and assembled with a proper master link and properly maintained and retired at the appropriate time..
I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
#64
Full Member
I would go as far as to say it is damn near impossible for a track chain to fail if it is cut and assembled with a proper master link and properly maintained and retired at the appropriate time..
I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
#65
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Problem with inserting pins into many modern chains is less length and more hollow pins that are peened at factory assembly. How long ago did you break a kmc road chain? They've had master links for at least five years.
#66
Full Member
I bought two KMC chains last Winter (along with a couple of Shimano chains). One KMC was a 10EL which did not come with a master link, but the other is a X10SL that I stil have in new in the box and after checking it, I see that this one has a master link. With my history, I like to stay stocked up with spare chains and pedals. I put the 10EL on my bike last week, so I'll see how long is lasts. Hopefully it will get me to the Spring. I believe the two chains I broke this year were both Shimano Dura Ace which I assembled using the supplied Shimano breakaway pin. The Shimano chain was designed for this breakaway pin, so I can't imagine that using their supplied pin and following their instructions is the wrong way to assemble the chain. Anyway, I am at a loss as a far road chains, but I'm pretty confident with my track chain choice. Does anyone know of an equivalent (at least in reputation) to the Izumi V for the road?
#67
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JFWIW, I have lots of experience with 1/8" and 3/32" on the track, both masterlinked and riveted. I've even ridden kilo (not superfast, but 1:08/1:09 territory, back before disks and aerobars) with the cheapest 3/32" chain available at the time. I've never had the slightest hint of chain trouble on the track, so I guess the argument about masterlink vs. rivet vs. whatever is academic.
Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.
My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...
<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.
My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...
<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
#68
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JFWIW, I have lots of experience with 1/8" and 3/32" on the track, both masterlinked and riveted. I've even ridden kilo (not superfast, but 1:08/1:09 territory, back before disks and aerobars) with the cheapest 3/32" chain available at the time. I've never had the slightest hint of chain trouble on the track, so I guess the argument about masterlink vs. rivet vs. whatever is academic.
Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.
My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...
<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.
My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...
<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
#69
Senior Member
So my kmc chains came today, and unfortunately they came with these type master links, which is why I avoided the Wippermann chains. Do you guys trust these master links? And are they reusable? It's unclear from the instructions. Thanks.
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It has worked fine for me for a couple of years now, but I am not putting out 2500 watts on starts. Easy to remove to swap chains. Since it is short if not fastened a quick spin after mounting will either have it seated or a side plate off if you messed up the install so it is a simple sanity check.
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#73
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Totally re-usable and actually faster to remove than the standard clip type assuming you have the tool.
still- I would buy a few of the KMC standard track masters and use those, since all you need is a flat head screw driver to change them, and it's clear that they are installed correctly.
ive got those masters on my road bikes (a 3/32 and a 10speed chain) and they work great.. But not my first choice for track
still- I would buy a few of the KMC standard track masters and use those, since all you need is a flat head screw driver to change them, and it's clear that they are installed correctly.
ive got those masters on my road bikes (a 3/32 and a 10speed chain) and they work great.. But not my first choice for track
#74
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Agree, thanks Quinn.
Looks like a good chain otherwise.
Looks like a good chain otherwise.
#75
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Is there any meaningful difference between these: 1/8" Masterlink Archives » KMC Chain
Or is it just varying amounts of heavy duty and color?
Or is it just varying amounts of heavy duty and color?