Being part of the problem!!
05-20-17, 02:03 PM
#76
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Dean,
I am in complete agreement. We may be in the minority I think though. You are correct, there are roads where we just should not ride when it's rush-hour, or heavy traffic, or no room for cars and bikes. Find a different route. I've seen a lot of bad things in my 50 years of road cycling. It some ways it's gotten better over the years and in other ways it's become a lot worse. Some cyclists, in my opinion, have this chip on their shoulder that tells them they can do anything they want. I've seen it, witnessed it, cursed at it, tried to reason with it, most often to no avail.
And yes, we have the same right to be on the road as cars but that does not give cyclist license to an a55. Taking up an entire road is being an a55. Taking up an entire lane in 5 o'clock traffic is being an a55. I used to commute to work. And yes, I had to be on the road during 5 o'clock traffic but I found alternate routes to purposefully avoid the traffic. It was not just for being considerate, it was for my own safety. I'm very selfish in that regard so I don't ride on heavy traffic roads.
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I am in complete agreement. We may be in the minority I think though. You are correct, there are roads where we just should not ride when it's rush-hour, or heavy traffic, or no room for cars and bikes. Find a different route. I've seen a lot of bad things in my 50 years of road cycling. It some ways it's gotten better over the years and in other ways it's become a lot worse. Some cyclists, in my opinion, have this chip on their shoulder that tells them they can do anything they want. I've seen it, witnessed it, cursed at it, tried to reason with it, most often to no avail.
And yes, we have the same right to be on the road as cars but that does not give cyclist license to an a55. Taking up an entire road is being an a55. Taking up an entire lane in 5 o'clock traffic is being an a55. I used to commute to work. And yes, I had to be on the road during 5 o'clock traffic but I found alternate routes to purposefully avoid the traffic. It was not just for being considerate, it was for my own safety. I'm very selfish in that regard so I don't ride on heavy traffic roads.
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In fact where I lived until recently, there were 3 freeways that motorists could use, and only 1 surface road that a cyclist could use. Given that situation, who is best suited for finding "alternate routes?"
05-20-17, 03:24 PM
#77
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How many rear end fatalities do we have each year where the cyclist is well right and the vehicle sideswipes or runs over the cyclist because they didn't see the cyclist or they made a judgement error on their distance from the cyclist?
There is not a definitive answer to those questions, but our limited data points to the latter as the larger problem. When I employ my risk management strategies, I develop them for the greater threat.
There is not a definitive answer to those questions, but our limited data points to the latter as the larger problem. When I employ my risk management strategies, I develop them for the greater threat.
05-20-17, 04:15 PM
#78
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Yeah, tend to agree... but I doubt there is really good collision data for cyclists... based on the generally poor reporting (record keeping) that is often done in such cases.
Frankly I tend to believe a good cyclist has lots and lots of options in their cycling toolbox... from "full and legit to the letter cycling," to "ninja," to "messenger," and all the variants and combinations in between. It just takes experience to be able to figure out what to do when, to avoid bad situations...
And the last thing we need is to be dogmatic about believing one way is better than another.
We really cannot expect motorists to watch for us... in spite of the fact that we are legitimate users of the road.
However, to the OP, I really do not believe we are "part of the problem," as "the problem" tends to be impatient motorists that believe we should not be on "their road." Clearly the biggest delay for drivers, is other cars, not cyclists. Perhaps the only exception to the above, is a cyclist that chooses to dogmatically take the lane when other options could be exercised. Of course the flip side to that is the motorist that dogmatically feels they own the lane, when other options could be exercised.
Frankly I tend to believe a good cyclist has lots and lots of options in their cycling toolbox... from "full and legit to the letter cycling," to "ninja," to "messenger," and all the variants and combinations in between. It just takes experience to be able to figure out what to do when, to avoid bad situations...
And the last thing we need is to be dogmatic about believing one way is better than another.
We really cannot expect motorists to watch for us... in spite of the fact that we are legitimate users of the road.
However, to the OP, I really do not believe we are "part of the problem," as "the problem" tends to be impatient motorists that believe we should not be on "their road." Clearly the biggest delay for drivers, is other cars, not cyclists. Perhaps the only exception to the above, is a cyclist that chooses to dogmatically take the lane when other options could be exercised. Of course the flip side to that is the motorist that dogmatically feels they own the lane, when other options could be exercised.
05-20-17, 04:30 PM
#79
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If I am on a lightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is approaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave. Nothing drastic. Just enough to make me more conspicuous. My belief is that this is a better way to be seen than crowding the fog line. Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. When I am as confident as I am going to get that they see me, I start easing my way over to the right wheel track. This is normally about the time they start moving left to come around. All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room.
That's just one of many scenarios that play out. There are an almost endless list of situations and what ifs we can get into. I walked through that one to tie into my earlier post where we were talking about the risk of being hit from behind and why I may be out in the lane at certain times.
05-20-17, 04:46 PM
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(I was going to provide a handy link, but apparently I'm not allowed to on this forum; 6,000 pedestrians were killed by cars in 2016.)
Just keep in mind that as a cyclist, you really are not the one "in the way" for most traffic issues... you are merely an "inconvenience for the moment." As soon as that irate motorist passes you, they have hordes and hordes of rolling metal boxes on the road in front of them causing the very crush those motorists hate so much.
Cyclists, by their nature are narrow, and take up very little room on the road. On the other hand, a car with only one occupant, takes up a lot of room on the road... and thus is really "part of the problem."
Cyclists, by their nature are narrow, and take up very little room on the road. On the other hand, a car with only one occupant, takes up a lot of room on the road... and thus is really "part of the problem."
05-20-17, 06:32 PM
#81
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https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/transportation/comparing-fatality-risks-united-states-transportation-across-modes-time#
05-20-17, 06:41 PM
#82
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....
Bicycles should come with a terms of service "Agree" button. "Cycling in proximity to motor vehicles is potentially dangerous and even life threatening. I accept personal responsibility for my actions. To continue, press AGREE."
Yes, the cyclist has free choice. He is partly to blame for increasing the danger in his life but does have a right to expect other road users won't try to intentionally kill him or endanger him through impatient neglect. ...
Bicycles should come with a terms of service "Agree" button. "Cycling in proximity to motor vehicles is potentially dangerous and even life threatening. I accept personal responsibility for my actions. To continue, press AGREE."
Yes, the cyclist has free choice. He is partly to blame for increasing the danger in his life but does have a right to expect other road users won't try to intentionally kill him or endanger him through impatient neglect. ...
05-20-17, 06:47 PM
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I often take the lane riding in traffic as a safety practice. But I never do it militantly. Those guys annoy me.
05-20-17, 09:34 PM
#84
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Because you are so new, BFs probably thinks you are trying to spam us. Did you get an odd message when you tried to post? If so, your post with the link is likely waiting for a MOD to approve it.
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05-21-17, 02:22 AM
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05-21-17, 07:05 AM
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You mentioned psycho drivers. How many fatalities do we have each year where a raging psycho takes out a cyclist taking the lane?
How many rear end fatalities do we have each year where the cyclist is well right and the vehicle sideswipes or runs over the cyclist because they didn't see the cyclist or they made a judgement error on their distance from the cyclist?
There is not a definitive answer to those questions, but our limited data points to the latter as the larger problem. When I employ my risk management strategies, I develop them for the greater threat.
How many rear end fatalities do we have each year where the cyclist is well right and the vehicle sideswipes or runs over the cyclist because they didn't see the cyclist or they made a judgement error on their distance from the cyclist?
There is not a definitive answer to those questions, but our limited data points to the latter as the larger problem. When I employ my risk management strategies, I develop them for the greater threat.
Like you I do my level best to stay away from traffic. When I do ride in traffic I employ a cocktail of risk mitigation strategies, none of which involve militantly taking the lane. My experience has shown me there are times to be out in the lane. If I am out in the lane and someone is behind me I am looking for ways to help them around me. I hope nothing I typed indicated that I am a lane hog or advocate it.
If I am on a lightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is approaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave. Nothing drastic. Just enough to make me more conspicuous. My belief is that this is a better way to be seen than crowding the fog line. Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. When I am as confident as I am going to get that they see me, I start easing my way over to the right wheel track. This is normally about the time they start moving left to come around. All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room.
That's just one of many scenarios that play out. There are an almost endless list of situations and what ifs we can get into. I walked through that one to tie into my earlier post where we were talking about the risk of being hit from behind and why I may be out in the lane at certain times.
If I am on a lightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is approaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave. Nothing drastic. Just enough to make me more conspicuous. My belief is that this is a better way to be seen than crowding the fog line. Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. When I am as confident as I am going to get that they see me, I start easing my way over to the right wheel track. This is normally about the time they start moving left to come around. All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room.
That's just one of many scenarios that play out. There are an almost endless list of situations and what ifs we can get into. I walked through that one to tie into my earlier post where we were talking about the risk of being hit from behind and why I may be out in the lane at certain times.
How many cyclists actually "militantly take the lane"? (as in NEVER move aside for traffic) Discounting large groups of racer types, I know I've certainly not seen even one. Also, can anyone claim the rider in the opening video does so, based only on a 20 second clip? Of course not. But oh the outrage, from some motorists and even some cyclists, for someone riding in the lane for even a few seconds, in a safe and legal manner. It's silly.
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 05-21-17 at 07:10 AM.
05-21-17, 07:07 AM
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05-21-17, 07:11 AM
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Checked and it is 10. Quick tip to get 10. Go to https://www.bikeforums.net/introductions/ and welcome new people. Besides getting to 10 quick, you'll be spreading good vibes.
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05-21-17, 09:10 AM
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What about all the riding in the middle of the lane non-incidents that aren't even worthy of video? Will you laugh at them too? Serious question, since getting plowed over or clipped in the middle of the lane is quite rare.
^^^Valid point, but one that someone with irrational fear from the rear will quickly dismiss.
Agreed, and I ride in much the same manner. My default is somewhere near center or right tire track. Glide right when safe and convenient to do so. Hold the lane when it is not.
How many cyclists actually "militantly take the lane"? (as in NEVER move aside for traffic) Discounting large groups of racer types, I know I've certainly not seen even one. Also, can anyone claim the rider in the opening video does so, based only on a 20 second clip? Of course not. But oh the outrage, from some motorists and even some cyclists, for someone riding in the lane for even a few seconds, in a safe and legal manner. It's silly.
^^^Valid point, but one that someone with irrational fear from the rear will quickly dismiss.
Agreed, and I ride in much the same manner. My default is somewhere near center or right tire track. Glide right when safe and convenient to do so. Hold the lane when it is not.
How many cyclists actually "militantly take the lane"? (as in NEVER move aside for traffic) Discounting large groups of racer types, I know I've certainly not seen even one. Also, can anyone claim the rider in the opening video does so, based only on a 20 second clip? Of course not. But oh the outrage, from some motorists and even some cyclists, for someone riding in the lane for even a few seconds, in a safe and legal manner. It's silly.
It's a bit frightening to read the comments following the article and look at the like and dislikes on each comment.
05-21-17, 03:02 PM
#91
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Like you I do my level best to stay away from traffic. When I do ride in traffic I employ a cocktail of risk mitigation strategies, none of which involve militantly taking the lane. My experience has shown me there are times to be out in the lane.If I am out in the lane and someone is behind me I am looking for ways to help them around me. I hope nothing I typed indicated that I am a lane hog or advocate it.
If I am on a lightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is approaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave. Nothing drastic. Just enough to make me more conspicuous. My belief is that this is a better way to be seen than crowding the fog line.
Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. When I am as confident as I am going to get that they see me, I start easing my way over to the right wheel track. This is normally about the time they start moving left to come around. All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room.
That's just one of many scenarios that play out. There are an almost endless list of situations and what ifs we can get into. I walked through that one to tie into my earlier post where we were talking about the risk of being hit from behind and why I may be out in the lane at certain times.
If I am on a lightly traveled narrow rural roadway, I will very likely take a center lane position. When a vehicle is approaching from the rear and while they are still well back I may do an in lane weave. Nothing drastic. Just enough to make me more conspicuous. My belief is that this is a better way to be seen than crowding the fog line.
Then I look over my shoulder to let them know I know they are there. When I am as confident as I am going to get that they see me, I start easing my way over to the right wheel track. This is normally about the time they start moving left to come around. All those who pass courteously get a friendly wave. While there really is no value to them in my moving right, I think it does give them the impression I am being cooperative. It also gives me a little more room.
That's just one of many scenarios that play out. There are an almost endless list of situations and what ifs we can get into. I walked through that one to tie into my earlier post where we were talking about the risk of being hit from behind and why I may be out in the lane at certain times.
”Being seen”… One counterpoint to this dependence on what the drivers see (or notice) IMO is for us cyclists to extend our perception to anticipate what the driver might do. For me this in the main is the use of a rearview mirror.
For myself also is to incorporate in my mind what I have described as safety aphorisms to warn of unseen dangers:
For myself also is to incorporate in my mind what I have described as safety aphorisms to warn of unseen dangers:
…Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms, collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.
FWIW, for my own information at least:
FWIW, for my own information at least:
- Make yourself as visible as possible,and assume nobody sees you.
- Like a weapon, assume every stopped car is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit from either sid
- To know where a car is going, watch the front wheels, not the body or hood.
- Don’t ride over an area (such as puddles or leaves) when you can’t see the road surface
- When approaching a curve with no forward sight lines, hug the curb…’tight to the right’
- When riding at night, look for cars, not just headlights
- You don’t have the right-of-way until the other yields it to you (learned from my teacher in driver’s ed).
- Jim’s Law of the Road: “No matter how well-paved and lightly traveled the Road, a vehicle is likely to pass on the left as you encounter an obstacle on the right.” My argument to wear a rearview mirror.
As a cyclist I consider it my job to be aware of all the traffic around me…
Being surprised by a close pass that I never saw coming, or having no space to glide into when it's about to happen, means I F'd up…
These facts should be used to a cyclists advantage. Be somewhere and something that is more likely to command driver attention... and a reaction. Lane position, high-vis gear and flashing running lights work. In the rare instances when they don't, you have your wits and buffer to save you
Being surprised by a close pass that I never saw coming, or having no space to glide into when it's about to happen, means I F'd up…
These facts should be used to a cyclists advantage. Be somewhere and something that is more likely to command driver attention... and a reaction. Lane position, high-vis gear and flashing running lights work. In the rare instances when they don't, you have your wits and buffer to save you
"First crash (run off the road into the curb!)”…My sympathetic dittoes to the above, and thanks for this post. I’m usually pretty flexible to accommodate the drivers, but your post and canklecat’s reply have made me rethink my “position.” I may become more assertive, without being obnoxious to stay further in the right tire track, as suggested.
However in my experience, I use left and right hand rearview mirrors, so I feel I am more aware of my surroundings, to accommodate more readily (in particular the right hand mirror gives an excellent rearward view when riding along the far left curb on a one-way road). But even so, I was hit from behind on a calm two lane road by a distracted driver. As I recall I was traveling about in themiddle of the lane, and the situation was so serene that I didn’t even check my mirrors.
BTW there was this current (today) post that IMO nicely discusses the drivers’ mindset when restrained by a cyclist…
However in my experience, I use left and right hand rearview mirrors, so I feel I am more aware of my surroundings, to accommodate more readily (in particular the right hand mirror gives an excellent rearward view when riding along the far left curb on a one-way road). But even so, I was hit from behind on a calm two lane road by a distracted driver. As I recall I was traveling about in themiddle of the lane, and the situation was so serene that I didn’t even check my mirrors.
BTW there was this current (today) post that IMO nicely discusses the drivers’ mindset when restrained by a cyclist…
I also like your strategy of gently nudging towards the center, then relenting towards the right. And I always give a wave to the cooperative driver, either before or after their pass.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 05-21-17 at 04:46 PM.
05-21-17, 03:50 PM
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It's not a serious question at all because you know the answer. People only laugh at what in their opinion is stupidity and watching someone ride up the center of a lane would be as boring as watching paint dry. If you think I am callous just say so. Don't try to construct an argument based on your opinions because your opinions are of value only to those that hold similar ones. In my opinion anyone who wants to hog a vehicular lane on a bicycle is arrogant and stupid and when they get creamed it's hilarious.
05-21-17, 03:57 PM
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I agree, it's a good strategy, and I also always make eye contact if I can, and wave, especially at roundabouts when drivers slow to allow me through. Of course this is impractical if you ride alongside a thousand cars on a busy road, something I would never consider doing. Being in a position of weakness, as all cyclists are in the face of traffic, it just makes sense to engender as much positive attitude from drivers as we can.
05-21-17, 05:24 PM
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I make an effort to be accommodating to others whenever I can because it's good manners, you know, do unto others......., and I believe most people are basically good.
I'm also aware that there's a few out there who have have an irrational hate of cyclists, therefore I'm not going to attempt to please everyone all the time. I'm not going to let those rotten apples dictate what I do, or allow them to turn me into a rotten apple.
Give a little, take a little.
I'm also aware that there's a few out there who have have an irrational hate of cyclists, therefore I'm not going to attempt to please everyone all the time. I'm not going to let those rotten apples dictate what I do, or allow them to turn me into a rotten apple.
Give a little, take a little.
05-21-17, 06:18 PM
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Although it doesn't really need to be said, when a cyclist riding far right gets creamed I never for a second would find it hilarious.
I make an effort to be accommodating to others whenever I can because it's good manners, you know, do unto others......., and I believe most people are basically good.
I'm also aware that there's a few out there who have have an irrational hate of cyclists, therefore I'm not going to attempt to please everyone all the time. I'm not going to let those rotten apples dictate what I do, or allow them to turn me into a rotten apple.
Give a little, take a little.
I'm also aware that there's a few out there who have have an irrational hate of cyclists, therefore I'm not going to attempt to please everyone all the time. I'm not going to let those rotten apples dictate what I do, or allow them to turn me into a rotten apple.
Give a little, take a little.
That's what I do too. And really, no one here knows if the cyclist in the OP video doesn't do the same thing! All we know is he held a narrow lane for a few seconds while there was oncoming traffic, which is prudent and legal. The outrage over this is completely unfounded.
05-21-17, 07:31 PM
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You want cars to respect you and obey the rules, lead by example.
05-21-17, 07:54 PM
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Legal Legal Legal, what a double standard this is. At a stopsign last month I watched 20 odd cyclists race straight through, the rest of the pack only slowed when a car approached but none actually stopped. I'm sick of hearing all this talk about how car drivers need to obey the letter of the law from cylists who flaunt it at every turn.
You want cars to respect you and obey the rules, lead by example.
You want cars to respect you and obey the rules, lead by example.
05-22-17, 01:54 AM
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That is a double standard and you know it.
05-22-17, 06:17 AM
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It's not his post obviously, it's the attitude of a large portion of cyclists. Some here seem offended that I said I laughed at the consequences of stupid behavior yet down on the safety subforum cyclists regularly call for the murder or execution of car drivers who kill cyclists in accidents. I cohabit the roads with cars and am prepared to give them right of way in all circumstances because they are so dangerous. Many here though deliberately insist on the letter of the law regardless of the inconvenience it causes to others and the danger to themselves thought they won't obey the law themselves
That is a double standard and you know it.
That is a double standard and you know it.
In a no passing zone on a road too narrow to safely share with a motor vehicle would be one of those times our laws allow us to take the lane. In the subject clip we see about a 12 second shot, most of which shows a cyclist in a no passing zone. If his objective was to dissuade and unsafe pass in the no passing zone, he certainly accomplished that goal. Once the cyclist entered a passing zone, the van driver could have easily made a safe pass, but rather chose to bully the rider.
The point is that the law generally allows cyclists to make lane position determination based on their read of the whole traffic picture. Their read is based on their knowledge, education, experience and possibly training. Here's where our disagreement lies if I understand your position correctly. You would find joy in a motorist plowing down a cyclist who holds the lane in circumstances in which you wouldn't. I would not. Even when I think a cyclist is unreasonably holding the lane, I wouldn't celebrate him getting mowed down by a petulant motorist. You would.
Frankly I am surprised the moderators haven't sent you packing for that remark.