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tubeless rim tape shift exposing spoke holes

Old 10-26-20, 03:19 PM
  #1  
masi61
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tubeless rim tape shift exposing spoke holes

I have been hit and miss with my application of tubeless rim tape for my 2 roadbikes. One has latex inner tubes with Challenge open tubulars mounted on Velocity A23 rims, the other has Panaracer tubeless tires mounted onto DT Swiss R460 rims.

The tires mount so tight that even when I’m super careful to put 2 layers on, centered well and smoothed out well - it still ends up shifting while mounting the tire. This ultimately exposes a few of the spoke holes allowing sealant to leak through the opening or allowing tiny punctures to form on the interior side of the latex tube.

Right now I have been using one layer of 21mm “Kapton” tape (transparent amber color) and one layer of 21mm “3M” (light blue color) tubeless tape.

is there a more foolproof brand of tape that I could be using? I quit using Velox because I thought it made mounting my Challenge open tubulars more, uh... challenging. Now I’m thinking of going back to the Velox for the latex tubed wheels for the better spoke hole protection it may well offer,

Let me know what you think I could do better or different, thanks.
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Old 10-26-20, 03:33 PM
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The generic tape may be exactly the same as the bike brand stuff but I'd probably try a bike specific tape before I gave up on the enterprise. I have some blue tape from Pacenti that hasn't moved in years.
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Old 10-26-20, 03:47 PM
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Don't use the Kapton tape. The adhesive for the tubeless tape won't stick to the Kapton tape and that makes it shift. Just use proper tubeless rim tape and follow the directions.
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Old 10-28-20, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
Don't use the Kapton tape. The adhesive for the tubeless tape won't stick to the Kapton tape and that makes it shift. Just use proper tubeless rim tape and follow the directions.
I’m using the light blue 3M Scotch 21 mm tape that I purchased inexpensively in a large roll a couple years ago. I removed my flatted latex tube and patched the internal puncture with a Rema TipTop patch. In the meantime I removed the mess of 2 layers of tape which had shifted and revealed the edges of multiple spoke holes. So this time I am taking your advice and just sticking with the light blue 21mm 3M tape. I decided to start with just one layer with 1.5 spoke holes overlap at each end of the valve. I had the idea of bedding it in with a blow dryer set on “hot” with the smooth edge of a plastic tire lever to first adhere the edges of the tape on the outer rim shelf and secondly to use the heat to stretch the tape a bit to conform better to the internal extrusion. I had some success with this but didn’t get the blue tape to bottom out fully in the “well” of the rim. I did feel better that the tape was going to stay put as I re-installed my Challenge Strada open tubular tire which was now able to be mounted without tire levers (after having about 100+ miles on it already).

Once I tucked the pink Vittoria latex tube that had been patched, I had no pinches of pink tube exposing themselves under the bead, a good sign. Another good sign is that as I checked for pinches around the circumference on each side of the wheel, I saw continuous blue 3M tubeless tape still in the correct position up and adhered adequately on the shelf. I believe Velocity A23’s are “tubeless ready” a configuration that I have not tried yet since I am still enjoying the nice latex (tubed) ride ride now. The A23’s extrusion could easily be remade into a full tubeless if they would have the outer edge of the rim shelf be squared off more sharply which would perhaps seal more positively with the accurately machined square Kevlar tubeless bead of today’s excellent tubeless road tires.

So I had a question for those who run tubeless on wheels requiring tubeless tape: have you ever bedded/adhered the tape down better by using a heat gun (or blow dryer)? I didn’t get the amount of tape stretch when heated with the blow dryer but I got some stretch which (crossing my fingers) is a positive sign of a better setup. I’ll just have to see how the light blue tape holds up to even more heat. It might work, but I suppose the plan could backfire and make the tape brittle or somehow ruin the adhesive. I am considering purchasing some DT Swiss 21mm tubeless tape since it has been mentioned on these forums as being very good. What I don’t know is whether it is stretchier, or if it has a better adhesive to inspire a bit more confidence compared with what I am presently using.

I was pleased that the subsequent mounting of the Challenge Strada tire with patched Vittoria latex tube went so well. I promptly went out and did a 42 mile fall training ride yesterday. I over-inflated the rear to 107 psi for the ride just to help everything fully seat in. I felt no further pops and the tire rolled very round after I brought the tire up to pressure and manually rolled a bit of low running tire bead sideways to allow it to lift and “pop” - tubeless style onto the rim shelf thus allowing full pressurization of the tire fully to go ride. For today’s training ride, I will go for more comfort with my 25mm width tires and run a softer 88 psi in the rear (not 107) and hopefully it will still roll fast but now offer a bit more softening of road cracks with my aluminum framed Flyte SRS-3 compact frame road bike.

Last edited by masi61; 10-28-20 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 10-28-20, 09:03 AM
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DT Swiss tape...it must be 4mm wider than the inner diameter of your rims. If your tape is sliding around, it is generally a sign that it is too narrow or lacks adhesion. DT swiss tape is the best.

Re-wrap your rims and do a double wrap. Start on one side of the valve core hole...wrap twice and end on the opposite side of the valve core hole. This way you get double wrap where your spokes are and a single around the valve hole to promote better sealing around the valve core.
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Old 10-28-20, 09:19 AM
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I am curious as to why you used 2 types of tape? I set a bike up tubeless with Kapton tape about a year ago and have had no issues, no flats. The tape width was full width from flange to flange. Now, that was on a bike packing bike with bigger tires and lower pressures, but at the same time the bike weighed 77 lbs loaded (bike and gear) and I weight 180 lbs, and I was on numerous rough trails and gravel.

I know the higher pressure of road tires could make a difference.
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Old 10-28-20, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bikeaddiction1
I am curious as to why you used 2 types of tape? I set a bike up tubeless with Kapton tape about a year ago and have had no issues, no flats. The tape width was full width from flange to flange. Now, that was on a bike packing bike with bigger tires and lower pressures, but at the same time the bike weighed 77 lbs loaded (bike and gear) and I weight 180 lbs, and I was on numerous rough trails and gravel.

I know the higher pressure of road tires could make a difference.
I tried the Kapton as the lower layer (the translucent brown) because it is thinner and seemed to conform better but also be a bit more delicate. The light blue 3M I used for the second layer which is thicker so more durable, but not as flexible.

I still would like to know if folks ever use a heat gun to bed everything in better thus giving increased confidence that an ultra tight new tire doesn’t disrupt it when first mounted.
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Old 10-28-20, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
DT Swiss tape...it must be 4mm wider than the inner diameter of your rims. If your tape is sliding around, it is generally a sign that it is too narrow or lacks adhesion. DT swiss tape is the best.

Re-wrap your rims and do a double wrap. Start on one side of the valve core hole...wrap twice and end on the opposite side of the valve core hole. This way you get double wrap where your spokes are and a single around the valve hole to promote better sealing around the valve core.
I emailed Velocity about the recommended tape for the A23 which has an internal width of 18 mm and they replied that 21mm Velotape is what they recommend. This appears to be the exact product that I’m using except the 3M 21mm tape is just ever so slightly lacking in adhesion. So going with your recommendation of 4mm wider, then 22mm tape might give me slightly better coverage. I do see the Chinese generic Kapton tape on eBay available in 22mm width but the closest size in the DT Swiss tape would be the 21mm.

In your experience, what attribute of the DT-Swiss tape makes it “best”?
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Old 10-28-20, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61
I tried the Kapton as the lower layer (the translucent brown) because it is thinner and seemed to conform better but also be a bit more delicate. The light blue 3M I used for the second layer which is thicker so more durable, but not as flexible.

I still would like to know if folks ever use a heat gun to bed everything in better thus giving increased confidence that an ultra tight new tire doesn’t disrupt it when first mounted.
I did pull the Kapton tape quite tight to help force it down into the dish in the rim at the spoke holes. Because I had never used Kapton and wanted confidence it was bedded in, I installed a tube at the max specified pressure for the tire to apply "clamping pressure" and left it overnight before removing the tube and installing the tubeless stem and sealant. I am not sure that this helped but based on inspection the tape was bedded into the dish well and I still have had not had any failures a year later. I also have not removed the tires so I can not say the tape never moved.

Last edited by bikeaddiction1; 10-28-20 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 10-28-20, 09:57 AM
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I don't adhere to the 4mm wider than internal width. I don't like the tape coming up the side of the rim where the bead is. 22mm internal width, I use 23mm tape.
I do use DTSwiss tape. it's expensive, but works really well.
I also clean the rim bed with alcohol for best adhesion.

Use a product made for bicycle rims.
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Old 10-28-20, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bikeaddiction1
I did pull the Kapton tape quite tight to help force it down into the dish in the rim at the spoke holes. Because I had never used Kapton and wanted confidence it was bedded in, I installed a tube at the max specified pressure for the tire to apply "clamping pressure" and left it overnight before removing the tube andinstalling the tubeless stem and sealant. I am not sure that this helped but based on inspection the tape was bedded into the dish well and I still have had not had any failures a year later. I also have not removed the tires so I can not say the tape never moved.
Thanks for your reply. The procedure you mention is a good one I believe - where you use a tube at full pressure to fully flatten out the tape prior to installing your tubeless valve, tubeless tire and sealant. I did this procedure on my DT Swiss R460 rear wheel on my other road bike (on which I am running Panaracer Race A, EVO3 25,, tubeless tires). For the front wheel I did not bed it in with a tube and this wheel loses quite a bit more air between rides than the rear. The rear will lose 5psi or less over night whereas the front (the one not bedded in with a tube first) loses about 20psi over night. Needless to say, the front tire install is looking like it needs to be re-done.

It sounds like your wheels are quite a bit wider so getting the wide tape to not let any sealant leech around the edges of the spoke holes is less of an issue. With narrow, high pressure “open tubular” 25mm clinchers that I am using, the initial install has to be implemented perfectly so as not to bunch up that tubeless tape internally.

Last edited by masi61; 10-28-20 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 10-28-20, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel
I don't adhere to the 4mm wider than internal width. I don't like the tape coming up the side of the rim where the bead is. 22mm internal width, I use 23mm tape.
I do use DTSwiss tape. it's expensive, but works really well.
I also clean the rim bed with alcohol for best adhesion.

Use a product made for bicycle rims.
Which rim are you using that has a 22mm internal width? Just curious.

For the A23’s with their 18 mm interior width, the 21 mm tape once fully seated stops just shy of the bead shelf. If the adhesive doesn’t adhere well, even the slightest little air bubble in the tape can provide a channel for air and a bit of sealant to make its way to one of the spoke holes, thus making a usable wheel that pressures up “ok” enough to ride, but less than confidence inspiring with regard to suboptimal overnight air leakage.
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Old 10-28-20, 10:19 AM
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It's actually 22.5mm internal. DTSwiss XM401 All Mountain rims with 2.25 inches tires.
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component...ountain/xm-401
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Old 10-28-20, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel
It's actually 22.5mm internal. DTSwiss XM401 All Mountain rims with 2.25 inches tires.
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component...ountain/xm-401
I’m such a “roadie” that I never get around to setting up any wheels for tires any wider than 25’s. In an ideal world I would have a 29er gravel bike. It would be fun to ride and set up. I have such a backlog of unbuilt road bike builds (not to mention daily maintenance on my 2 daily riders), getting a gravel bike or 29er might still be several years away.
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Old 10-28-20, 10:30 AM
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When applying, pull the tape taught, run your thumb or finger down the middle as you apply to ensure it adheres to the center channel and across the shoulders. The recommended 4mm wider that internal diameter is to have an extra width of up to 2mm on each side without interfering with the bead. When you do a double wrap as I described above, it will also help with seating those problem tires that are otherwise loose.
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Old 10-28-20, 10:33 AM
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Ha. I have the wheels on a 29r XC FS MTB. It's my "gravel bike"
We don't really have gravel roads in So. California.... it's hard packed adobe clay, loose sand and broken rock fire roads.
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Old 10-28-20, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
When applying, pull the tape taught, run your thumb or finger down the middle as you apply to ensure it adheres to the center channel and across the shoulders. The recommended 4mm wider that internal diameter is to have an extra width of up to 2mm on each side without interfering with the bead. When you do a double wrap as I described above, it will also help with seating those problem tires that are otherwise loose.
My Challenge Strada open tubulars are pretty darn tight for the first mounting. That and the fact that my 3M tape is a bit thick to begin with, has me trialing a single layer this time.
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Old 10-28-20, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61
My Challenge Strada open tubulars are pretty darn tight for the first mounting. That and the fact that my 3M tape is a bit thick to begin with, has me trialing a single layer this time.
If you are able to seal with a floor pump, you should be good, just make sure there is adequate overlap where you end the tape job.
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Old 10-30-20, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
If you are able to seal with a floor pump, you should be good, just make sure there is adequate overlap where you end the tape job.
Well the Challenge Strada open tubulars are clincher type tires, so they better seal with a floor pump or that means I have punctured my latex inner tube (again)!

But, yes - I did give a healthy overlap at each end of the (single layer) of the tape at the valve.
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