Racingboo

Hi all. I haven't posted on here for ages, life threw me a number last year, but I remembered BikeForums when I encountered a problem today, and hope perhaps I can find some solace, some encouragement, maybe advice, I don't know.

I live in Dundalk in Ireland, an old, old town with the typical narrow roads and terrace houses. I've had to cycle in town since we moved here seven years ago, in 2005. It was often a hairy experience, especially with kids in tow. Imagine my delight when they started constructing cycle lanes in town, first aiming to make it possible for kids to cycle safely to school from a few main points, with a view to eventually connecting different sections into a cycle lane network throughout the town.

This is no easy task, as some of the roads as I mentioned are quite narrow. People don't like change anywhere, so it was no surprise when there were a lot of complaints about the lanes. Newspaper reports quoted officials asking residents to just be patient until the lanes are completed in a few weeks, because then we could see which of the congestion and other annoyances were caused by the lanes themselves or caused by the road works needed to install the lanes. As much as I support the lanes, I agree there are some places where roads will either have to be widened or (imo more practical and less costly than widening) made into one-way streets, but I can understand the logic behind waiting until the job is done to see which problems are inherent and which are related to the road works.

I was quite taken aback when I saw a Facebook page had been created, which you can see here: https://www.facebook.com/ReviewDundalkCycleLanes More worrying was the vitriol in the comments, and after much thought and some discussion with the chairman of the cycling alliance, I created a blog so as to identify and discuss each of the objections without hogging the FB page or flooding it with comments. Though my idea was to present both sides of the story in each article, I knew I'd be biased, so I made sure to invite those who could better represent the opposing point of view to do so, and I'd edit the post by copying and pasting their views in the text. I posted only a link on the FB page for each post.

All went well until today I wanted to post a link to a new entry, and found I'd been blocked from the page. I saw lower down that someone else had also mentioned comments being edited and removed. I was not notified of this, nor warned of anything I was doing which put me in danger of being banned.

Now, I could just shrug and move on. However, these people are making so much noise that elected councillors are now going to try to use a political loophole to try and stop all work on the cycling lanes. The 'review' group is making noise in such a way that it sounds as if everyone hates the lanes. They're harping on the fact that few cyclists use the lanes, ignoring those who have pointed out that only once the lanes are done can we start working on encouraging people to use them.

You can see the blog I started to try and engage people in reasonable discussion here - https://thosedamncyclinglanes.wordpress.com/ .

It's not just a local matter, as Dundalk is a quaint historic town surrounded by some stunning natural beauty. There's a world-class dedicated mountain bike route just ten minutes' drive from town, and the Cooley mountains generally are a mountain biker's heaven. The cycling club has been working for a while on plans for a velodrome with surrounding facilities for BMX etc. in the same estate. In addition we've got some of Ireland's top cyclists and triathletes here, with one of the country's top cycling clubs. We have so much to offer, but until we become cycle friendly, with both biking tourists as well as conventional tourists (that's another thing, you can't hire bikes anywhere in town! But that's because people who visit here don't want to opt for cycling, because there aren't safe cycling lanes!) being able to explore the surrounding countryside on two wheels, all that counts for nothing. It upsets me so much that these people's attitude is probably going to scupper this admirable project.

It's also the page owner's good right to block whoever they will, but this is the only public platform for discussion of the matter. I've effectively been shut up.

Any advice? Suggestions? Perhaps a different point of view? Experience of the same?

gerv 

My first suggestion would be to scrap the Facebook page ASAP. Inviting comments is like lubing your chain with motor grease. It does nothing but attract dirt.

From what I've seen of bike lane politics in my city, I'd suggest:
1. Sell the project and its benefits for children to a local teacher... preferably a cyclist and see if they can make suggestions to lobby the powers that be about making things safer for children. All you need do here is get the ball rolling. If for some reason the ball doesn't roll, move on.

2. Talk to some business owners. When lanes were placed here near one commercial property, several pub owners complained loudly (like your facebook folks...). However, when the lanes were implemented, their businesses were heavily frequented by cyclists and they are now very, very pro bike lane. You only need one or two business leaders to step up here and tout the business benefit.

3. Try to capture some accident statistics before and after bike lane implementation. If these look good, bring them to a local councillor and tell them there will be hell to pay when more accidents occur in this area. Bike lanes are saving lives.

Good luck with your project.

Roody

I agree with gerv. Bike advocates alone aren't going to get far in this struggle, because they look like they're selfishly looking after theiir own interests. You need to form coalitions with other interst groups who will benefit from complete streets. Besides children and business people, mentioned by gerv, seinor groupls and handicapper groups are good allies. It's easy to attack upper class bike riders, harder to attack children, old people, people in wheelchairs, and the local shopkeepers and employers.

This is how we got Complete Streets ordinance and other non-motor transport ideas passed in my city (which happens to be a historical center of auto manufacturing).

gerv 

Yep... after one year, a variety of groups wanted to shut down the bike lanes. I was told it wouldn't happen. Accidents were down. Noise too. Businesses were on board.

Some of the groups were from nearby streets that had no bike lanes and had picked up more traffic.

Sorry... if you want to fix your problems, get bike lanes.

[Actually, the best way to sell this program is not as "bike lanes" but as a comprehensive program to improve cycling, walking, traffic management. Bike lanes are just a part of the program. Usually, as Roody points out, it's a "Complete Streets" makeover.... which is clever marketing IMHO]

Racingboo

Gerv and Roody, thanks very much for your responses. Gerv, I didn't start the cycle lane Facebook page, so I have no control there. I have in fact been blocked from it, so I'll have to be creative and think of other ways to promote the pro-cycling-lane view. My heart is to be gentle about it, non-confrontational and positive, and your suggestions have been great. I joined the cycling alliance two months ago to help with this, and at the last meeting gave a presentation on ideas to do much what you suggested there, to get businesses, schools and residents on the side of the lanes. I'll hear which of those can be adapted at the next meeting, which is on Wednesday evening. At the moment there's a level of hostility to them which I find frightening, as I am not really used to facing that. So it's going to be a fantastic opportunity for me to learn to stick with the gentle way regardless of what's coming my way.

I thought also of finding cycle tourist groups, perhaps even travel agents which specialise in cycle touring and asking for an article on how their advocacy of Dundalk as a destination might be influenced by the presence of cycle lanes. These should not be too hard to find on the internet, so I need to look into that.

Condorita

Maybe create your own FB group?

Scheherezade 

Good luck sir!

I'm actually living and working in Cashel, Co. Tipperary for about 6 weeks this spring. I've generally been unimpressed with the cycling infrastructure I've seen around the country (what little there has been). What's more surprising to me, though, is how few cyclists there are around. To me, the country would be great for cycling (mild hills, mild weather, tiny distances between everything). However, the roads in small little historic towns are packed with cars for a good portion of the day.

I haven't ridden a bike here yet, but someone is lending me a bike tomorrow so I can make a little day trip out of the bank holiday.

Cheers,

Tyler

Robert C

I realize that I am going a bit tangential (OK, a lot). However, what you are describing is a classic example of the problem in the trend to replace public space with private space. Having a discussion of public issues in a private space allows the dissenting views, as you saw, to be locked out. There are many other reasons that public space needs to be vigorously defended and that discussion, about public issues, which occurs in private space should be treated as suspect.

Sorry, too easy for me to go off on a rant on this one.

Roody

Don't be TOO gentle, but try to keep your message positive and emphasize that you're trying to make your town a better place for EVERYBODY, not just for cyclists. And it's good to remember that most of your opponents sincerely believe that thye are doing what's best for the town also!

I think the tourist angle is a good one. I know of many small towns here that have brought in tourist dollars with bicycle attractions. Almost everybody in a small town wants to bring in jobs, money, and "celebrity" for the town.

Keep us posted on what happens.

zephyr

It seems like there is always a tug-of-war that starts up when a city begins to install bicycle infrastructure for the first time, especially in places where bicycles are not too common on the local streets. I have never been to Ireland, and it's a world away from where I live in Southern California. Just up the coast from my area is a big port city called Long Beach. A few years ago they started to install a lot of bicycle infrastructure around the city to encourage more people to use bikes for in-town errands and transportation. Most of the bike routes are along city streets, although Long Beach also has a few awesome bike paths right along the beach sand. I think Long Beach has overreached to crown themselves as Bike City USA, but I guess if that what it take to improve things on the big city streets for cyclists, it's not all that bad. Here's an interesting article from an independent local weekly paper: https://www.ocweekly.com/2012-05-31/n...charlie-gandy/

Mobile 155

Long Beach has a way to go but they have also come a very long way. My Niece and Nephew live there and I just gave him my old MTB to compliment his old 3 speed Schwinn he was working on. My Niece just bought a nice little Specialized MTB herself. Riding in the right lane and having cars move left to pass is rather comforting. I do see more bikes at the resturants and stores along 2nd street and surrounding area.

doc0c

I'm looking at the other side of the coin here. Narrow roads usually means low speed and not much space to pass. That sounds like a perfect cycling setup, with or without bike lanes. You take the lane and the driver has little choice but to follow you until it is safe to pass. Once enough cyclists start doing that, the antagonists will be begging for bike lanes.

Racingboo

Thanks stacks for all the replies on here, I'm keeping track and making notes, all the advice is helpful.

That's a point worth considering, but I wouldn't feel safe doing so. We're looking at getting kids to cycle, and as long as parents are not confident their children will be safe doing so, they won't allow it. I've been cycling here for the last seven years, and I find it very scary in some places. It used to be a nightmare trying to get along without a car when my kids were small (I HAD to, didn't choose to, now I choose to).

gerv 

Just a little historical perspective here. The beginning of the bicycle infrastructure that Holland so famously sports was a series of protests about the safety of children biking, playing and walking in their communities. This seems to be a great rallying point. Just the comment that getting around the town by bicycle can be scary... that leads me to wonder why people in the community aren't out yelling and screaming.

Is the automobile so sacred?

Roody

Yes. Also parents here seem to be more worried about their kids being abducted by a stranger(which almost never happens) versus being injured in a car accicent (which happens hundreds of times every day).

bragi

+1

bragi

The fact that you've been blocked is actually a good sign: it means they know they can't beat you in a fair fight. Keep on going!

doc0c

I guess you can get anything done if you include the phrase "won't somebody please think of the children."
Fact is, nothing gets done unless there is a problem. If kids aren't riding their bikes in traffic and they're not getting injured, it's not much of a problem.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that maybe they need to approach this from a different tack.

Artkansas 

This has happened in Little Rock. The first few improvements were like pulling teeth, but now that they are in, its surprising the effect they are having. Before the Big Dam Bridge was built, folks said it would destroy the view of the river. Now the properties overlooking it are appreciating the fastest.

Now we have two bicycle rental stores, one on each side of the river, and 3 more bicycle/pedestrian bridges. Tourist dollars is what gets the mayor's attention. And all the rides in spring and fall fill the hotels and deliver on those yummy tourist dollars.

So when you want an improvement. Look at it from your opponents view and see if you can figure out how it helps them.

gerv 

You may have a point... which is why I suggested earlier that it might be a good idea to explore this notion, but if it doesn't stick, move on... There's absolutely no point in making the argument if there isn't a demand for relatively safe streets for the children. Seems crazy... but that might just be what's happening.

Roody

Maybe appeal to the parents? "If there were safe routes to school, you wouldn't have to spnd all that time and gas shlepping your kids to school every day. You know waiting in that car queue at the school isn't the high point of your day!"

Racingboo

Just to let everyone know I'm still visiting this thread now and then and getting a lot of good ideas from it. I wasn't quite sold on the idea of a Facebook page for the Cycling Alliance, but at the last meeting I was asked to make one, not only for the current controversy but also for the Alliance in general. So that's here: https://www.facebook.com/DundalkCyclingAlliance I'd anticipated it getting very few likes, but the point is we've got the FB presence now. I've in addition started contacting people individually who have commented on the page I'm banned from, asking them very politely for specifics. We seriously do need to know specifics of problems people have with the lanes, such as jutting islands which is a common complaint, because once the current phase of the lanes is done, the council will need to then of course see which problems were caused by the road works and which are in fact things that need to be tweaked with the lanes.

In one of the local papers this week there are a number of articles on cycling. The delightful ones are that a large amount of money has been allocated to developing a cycle lane along a disused railway line which would enable touring and leisure cyclists to enjoy the amazing natural beauty we have here safely. That specific trip is a hairy one at the moment, and it's very popular with cyclists. So I'm over the moon about that. Another is a small one on page 2, about a motorist who was distracted as she pulled out of their estate, and collided with a cyclist. I have a friend (ironman triathlete) to whom something similar happened last year just outside of town, and that in spite of it being an official cycle race with the accompanying marshals, bells, whistles, ambulance etc.

Anyway, I'll post now and then to update everyone of progress, and I can't stress enough how encouraging and helpful your responses have been.

gerv 

I Like'd your page. The streets look pretty good for a bike lane.